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-- The OLD and/or OBSCURE fighting game thread. (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=29388)

Posted by Crayfish on July 9th, 2001 12:18 PM:
The OLD and/or OBSCURE fighting game thread.

I'm a really big fan of many old and/or obscure fighting games. I have started a few threads on various individual ones before but there just isn't enough support to warrant a thread for just one game, so I would like to start a thread on any old and/or obscure fighting game you would care to talk about. Any strats, tactics, memories, misc info is welcome. Some of the games I would like to discuss are:

Fatal Fury Special.

Mortal Kombat 2.

World Heroes 2 and Perfect.

Fighters History Dynamite.

Slammasters and Super Muscle Bomber.

Breakers Revenge (Throwback fighting game, old schoolers check out).

Scrolling beatemups like Final fight & Alien vs Predator.

Mutant Fighter.

Anyone else, Crayfish.

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Posted by Servebot on July 9th, 2001 04:38 PM:

I got some:

Justice League Task Force,(SNES) its a fighting game with Dc comic characters with Superman and Batman

Ranma1/2, (SNES), its a fighting game of the Japanese anime

Posted by TS on July 9th, 2001 06:44 PM:

Eternal Champions.
Any thoughts?
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Posted by Renegade on July 9th, 2001 10:16 PM:

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Tournement Fighters...
game was too good.

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Posted by HuStLeMaN17 on July 9th, 2001 10:38 PM:

Actually I use to love to play Killer Instinct, to bad my local arcade doesn't have it
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Posted by Dasrik on July 9th, 2001 11:35 PM:

My favorite fighting game next to Hyper Fighting is One Must Fall 2097. Gargoyle and Electra owned that game.
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Posted by Optiks on July 9th, 2001 11:41 PM:

One game that I still remember was Time Killers. That game was really original, there were five buttons, head, left/right arm, left/right leg. It was really violent and you could win instantly if you decapitated your opponent. Unfortunately, the video game store that had this game got rid of it before I had a chance to play it more than a handful of times.
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Posted by Dank on July 11th, 2001 06:15 AM:

Time Killers had a quasi-sequel called "Bloodstorm", made by Strata. I used to LOVE this game, if anybody knows where i can get a cabinet or emulate it, PLEASE let me know.

Posted by mondu_the_fat on July 11th, 2001 06:35 AM:

OMF was a great game. Ugly robots, though, and had the same problems as SF2WW (easy throws/ticks, abusive crouching SK specialy of souped-up characters).

A fighting game I miss is Budokan. I still have the disks. Unfortunately I misplaced the manual so the damn copy-protection won't let me play anymore. They should make a new version of that--blocking was impossible. Also I miss this sword fighting game (i can't remember the name). It had tons of moves, as well as rolls, and decapitations. Absolutely fantastic for its time. Give the guys coats and you could call it a Highlander game.

And of course, how can I forget the game where I got my name from -- Tongue of the Fatman? Mondu really kicked butt.

Posted by Dasrik on July 11th, 2001 07:26 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by mondu_the_fat

You could counter throw in OMF - ticks weren't all that powerful. And only Electra, Shadow and Shredder had really good low shorts. The tournament mode is something I don't consider a real mode for competition.
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Posted by Terata on July 11th, 2001 07:49 AM:

Personally, I always liked the Deathmatch mode in World Heroes 2... that balance meter life bar thing rocked.

I was actually playing Eternal Champions a little while back. Choppy animations but it wasn't all bad, and some of the character designs were cool. I've got the Sega CD version and had some fun with it.

Posted by Apoc on July 11th, 2001 12:38 PM:

Man, I want Street Fighter vs. Yie Arr Kung Fu!!!!!

Apoc.

Posted by Tiger Bones on July 11th, 2001 01:27 PM:

man i remember weaponlord on the snes that game was so complex! so many combo systems and strats man that game owns!

also crayfish mentioned breakers..arrgghhh i got the roms for that on my comp... i can't finish the game on one credit.. i've been using the karate dude for like 4 weeks now non stop and can never beat that last boss..lol he's like a true snk boss of old..= wack and insanely hard.
in fact i've actually been playing that game more then sf lately

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Posted by BRENT on July 11th, 2001 04:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mondu_the_fat
A fighting game I miss is Budokan.

Amen to that brother. I loved that game! I only played the Genesis version, but I'm sure it's the same game. I loved whuppin' up on the nunchaku guy with my bare hands. Budokan was truly a great concept and would make an excellent reprise.

Time Killers! Man, there are some fogies in this thread! I remember using the bug guy and decapitating people with the buzz-saw move. They don't make 'em like that anymore.

I also spend many an hour attempting to master Weaponlord. Did Namco make that one, because it seems like a precursor to Soul Caliber.

Also, if none of you have played Project Justice yet, you are missing out! I tried it last night and had a blast. It has the off-beat flavor that will ensure its spot as a cult classic.

Posted by hyt on July 11th, 2001 04:18 PM:

Gundam Wing: Endless Duel for the Super Famicom was absolutely the best fighting game for that system. Kick ass graphics, and many characters, although Epyon was a cheapass bastard.
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Posted by Crayfish on July 11th, 2001 05:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tiger Bones

also crayfish mentioned breakers..arrgghhh i got the roms for that on my comp... i can't finish the game on one credit.. i've been using the karate dude for like 4 weeks now non stop and can never beat that last boss..lol he's like a true snk boss of old..= wack and insanely hard.
in fact i've actually been playing that game more then sf lately

Ah Breakers, ST fans should check this game out. Visco has basicaly combined the forgiving control system and "Super" freindly combo system of the Alpha games, the overpowered specialmoves of King of Fighters, the same kind of mix of traditional and bonkers character designs as World Heroes but all within an oldschool ST type structure and look.
Basically, imagine ST on PCP! If ST was classical music then Breakers would be Gabba Techno, I think this could be the gateway game that could bring MvsC2 fans accross to ST.
The funny thing about this game is that every character seems overpowered when you play them, all the moves are so effective and easy to execute but the characters remain very individual.
The Karate character (Sho) that Tiger Bones mentioned, he's got this kick (FB + K) that flips forward over sweeps in a flash, scores two hits and knocks down, overpowered or what! But its balanced out by the fact that every character has "overpowered" moves.
There is a T.Hawk character with a SPD but his uppercut move stays on the ground and all you need to do to perform it is press 3 buttons! The Dhalsim type character (Alsion, who I play) has a Balrog type dash attack and a MK2 Meleena "Sky Drop" type move!
But the strongest character must be Pelle, the french swordsman. He has a fireball, dragon, cyclone, a Fei Long type multi-part combo move, a T.Hawk style "Sky Dive", a near full screen range sword thrust(PP) and an eletrical sword thrust Super that juggles you for huge damage!
The boss of the game is a tounge in cheek, cheesy amalgam of fighting game stereotypes who is a cheap as they come.
Check this game out, its mad fun.

Where are all the Fatal Fury Special fans, I need strats and tacts and any other info for my all time faves Tung Fu Rue and Cheng. Yes I already know about the game breaking "Guard Attack".

Cmon people post some strategies, tactics, teirs etc for these old games, am I the only one who still plays them?

Crayfish.
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Posted by TS on July 11th, 2001 05:31 PM:

I played Eternal Champions with that Chi balance thing turned off, so you could do unlimited special moves... I know altering the default rules of a fighting game is pretty scrubby, but come on. That shit was whack.

Anyway, I'd like to nominate Larcen for top tier. Slap back move was just too good. As a matter of fact, I think everyone was pretty good in that game, save Slash, Midnight and Blade. Unless they have some dirty tricks I never found, they seem pretty weak. And with the Chi meter thing off, Shadow at least get's a nod because of her invincibility move...not to mention Trident, with his shield from far range, and his drill moves for close range.
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Posted by TS on July 11th, 2001 05:33 PM:

Never did play the Sega CD version though...

Brent- yes, Namco made WeaponLord (which I hated back in the day...wonder how I'd like it now). A guy or a few of the guys that worked on the SF2 games also helped create the game.
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Posted by Ultima on July 11th, 2001 05:57 PM:

TMNT: Tournament Fighter was awesome. My second favourite SNES fighter (behind HF of course), and still one of the best fighters I've ever played. It had great meta-balance - every character had at least one other character who could mudhole stomp them and no one particular character really dominated. The only exceptions were the bosses Karai (who had no counters) and Rat King (whose only counter was Karai, though Rat King could SLAUGHTER Karai is he somehow managed to trap her in a corner, but that was almost impossible).

The only problem is that I haven't played the game in so long that I can't remember who used to counter whom: I think I got Mickey lost to Donatello who lost to Cyber Shredder who lost to Aska who lost to War, and I'm drawing a blank after that. I'm not even sure if this partial list is accurate. I also completely forget what the tiers were like, since all I can recall is vague stuff like "all the turtles are good", "Donatello's the strongest turtle", "Cyber Shredder's the strongest character", and "Armaddon sucks ass". I'm sure that Armaddon is the worst character in the game, but I can't recall much after that. Can anyone else refresh me on what the tiers were like and who was a counter to whom?
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Posted by Spider-Dan on July 11th, 2001 06:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ultima

The only problem is that I haven't played the game in so long that I can't remember who used to counter whom: I think I got Mickey lost to Donatello who lost to Cyber Shredder who lost to Aska who lost to War, and I'm drawing a blank after that. I'm not even sure if this partial list is accurate. I also completely forget what the tiers were like, since all I can recall is vague stuff like "all the turtles are good", "Donatello's the strongest turtle", "Cyber Shredder's the strongest character", and "Armaddon sucks ass". I'm sure that Armaddon is the worst character in the game, but I can't recall much after that. Can anyone else refresh me on what the tiers were like and who was a counter to whom?

I don't think I played the game enough to develop tiers. I do agree with your Shredder ranking, though (surprisingly) I think Wingnut was right up there with him. Jab+Short rush punch was fast and safe, and repeatable for meter, he had Akuma-like air FB zoning, and his low short was insanely long. Unlike Shredder, he also had a completely safe, great block damage super (air explosions).

As far as my own contribution, I really like the Fighter's History games. Everyone knows FH1 was very much a SF ripoff, but it took a long time for me to realize that that's a GOOD THING. I picked up the arcade board about 2 years ago, and it's a really good game. It has an extremely good "meaty attack" game, and it's very throw friendly (but strangely anti-tick; counterthrower has much more priority in tick situations).

FH Dynamite is pretty good as well. Lots of O.Sagat speed fireballs, and the game overall plays very fast (not just in the sense of the same game with "more stars," but faster gameplay). It really feels like FH1 is SF2CE, while FHD is ST.
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Posted by Dank on July 12th, 2001 04:33 AM:

I found the ROMs for both Time Killers and BloodStorm, woohoo! Anyways, for you guys talking about Budokan: I still have the manual, if enough people express interest I'll scan the copy protection and post it.

Posted by margalis on July 12th, 2001 05:00 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BRENT

Time Killers! Man, there are some fogies in this thread! I remember using the bug guy and decapitating people with the buzz-saw move. They don't make 'em like that anymore.

I also spend many an hour attempting to master Weaponlord. Did Namco make that one, because it seems like a precursor to Soul Caliber.

Namco did make Weaponlord.

I remember the first and only time I played Time Killers. Round one, start, I press head button, opponent attacks, my head falls off and the round is over. Literally 1/2 a second. And that was it, because my friend lost in round one and I was taking over for him.

That has to be the shortest legit round in the history of fighting games.

Posted by margalis on July 12th, 2001 05:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ultima
Can anyone else refresh me on what the tiers were like and who was a counter to whom?

(Talking about Turtles for SNES)

Hee hee. Well, let's see now. The Fish dude was damn awesome. Imagine if Guile could charge his flash kick after a sonic boom fast enough to counter a jump in...sonic boom and flash kick all day long...too good!

Donatello was the best turtle, thanks to his low spin-around-on-his-head move. That had such insane priority and such a small vulnerable area. Just keep doing it when fairly close to the opponent. You know there has *got* to be something you can do but there just isn't.

Raf had the coolest moves, but was the worst turtle. Leo had decent combos and a super that did *insane* damage, hit or blocked. It was actually better to jump into it and get hit out of the air than block it...

Mikey was decent, he beat the robot dude for free, in two different ways. Just keep doing the ball attack from close, beats every robot man attack and powers up your meter in about 6 seconds...or, just keep throwing "dragon breath." (Fireball) Comes out high and fast enough so that poor robo can't jump over at all, he is too slow off the ground and his legs stick down too far when he jumps.

Shredder was sick, rushing uppercut was way too good. Half the characters couldn't do *anything* about it, sad.

Damn, what was that robot called? Erghhhhh...ChromeDome! Pretty good other than his total wash againt Mikey, good tick throws, good range, fast meter building. (Although super was pretty sad)

Top Tier:
Fish guy.
Donatello
Shredder

Bottom Tier:
Raphael
"Table Salt" Girl. ("Table Salt, Table Salt!" Well, whatever she said...the girl with the required female-character jumping butt attack. She beat *nobody.*)

I never played as either Rat King or the last boss so I don't know about them.

Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 12th, 2001 05:12 AM:

Damn, didn't know SNES TMNT was *that* good a fighter. I'll haveta give it another try.

The Genesis version of that particular game is a different story. Simply put, Casey Jones is one of the cheapest bastards I've seen yet. The main reason for this is his QCF+K. Sure, none of the 4 hits combo, but it's such a broken move for these reasons:

1. You can move forwards or backwards during it.
2. It has zero recovery time, unless you recover while a projectile is touching you.
3. IT IS COMPLETELY INVINCIBLE.

Well, not completely. It can only be stopped by command throws. No biggie, given that only April and another Casey have throw DM's and only April has a normal command throw.

Things get even worse when you get them in the corner. Here, you can drop a time bomb and do QCF+K to keep them there. They'll eat at least 20% block damage between these two moves. Just be sure not to start your special too early, as the bomb can hit you too.

Last but not least is his throw DM. Easy to do, good damage and range.

As for other obscure fighting games...how about Violence Fight? This little pile of crap was released be Taito in 1989, and it had 4 playable characters. They couldn't decide whether the main character's name was "Bat" or "Bad", as both are used.
Strategies? I just picked the fat wrestler ("Lick Joe") and dropkicked everybody to death. This worked up until the first boss, who I can't ever beat.

The ONLY reason to ever play this is for the gawd-awful translation. I'll save all of ya the trouble and direct you to Zany Video Game Quotes:

http://zanyvg.overclocked.org/

Well, not much else to say for now. If anyone's interested, I can post FF Special Duck King combos tomorrow. That guy may have more combos than anyone else in the game. And what is this "guard attack" I'm hearing about in here?

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by Ultima on July 12th, 2001 07:17 AM:

SpiderDan said:

> I don't think I played the game enough to develop tiers.

Me neither, come to think about it. I just remember every character having at least one bad matchup in my experience.

> I do agree with your Shredder ranking, though (surprisingly) I think Wingnut was right up there with him. Jab+Short rush punch was fast and safe, and repeatable for meter, he had Akuma-like air FB zoning, and his low short was insanely long. Unlike Shredder, he also had a completely safe, great block damage super (air explosions).

Yeah. I used to think Wingnut sucked until I started playing around with his air dash and dive, both of which were really good (at least I think the dive was good). He could be played like a ghetto MvC War Machine. Almost. I remember him having this hard to pull off, really damaging combo from a cross up. Something like cross-up fierce (which was hard enough to pull off, giving his crappy jump), two low shorts, s.fierce or something like that. I might be remembering wrong. And the air explosion super (Mad Spectre!) was awesome. Perfectly safe, and massively damaging if you were right above your opponent's head. Not to mention you could get into some ambiguous cross-up fun with air-dash -> Mad Spactre.

Can't comment on the FH games. Never played them, sorry.

(Hi James!) margalis said:

> (Talking about Turtles for SNES)

> Hee hee. Well, let's see now. The Fish dude was damn awesome. Imagine if Guile could charge his flash kick after a sonic boom fast enough to counter a jump in...sonic boom and flash kick all day long...too good!

Hmm. In my experience, while Armaddon's (aka fish dude) charge time was very low and he had the fastest FB in the game, I thought his anti-air move sucked because of its arc - he shot out way too far ahead, and I would often shoot under my opponent a la Cyclop's fierce gene Splice (but worse). He also had the worst super in the game - easy to avoid, did next to no block damage, and did crap damage even if it hit. I may be wrong, but I also don't recall him having any decent normals except for c.short and c.roundhouse.

> Donatello was the best turtle, thanks to his low spin-around-on-his-head move. That had such insane priority and such a small vulnerable area. Just keep doing it when fairly close to the opponent. You know there has *got* to be something you can do but there just isn't.

Yeah. Not to mention the insanly damaging, easy to do combos: Jumping fierce, standing fierce (2 hits) = 40% damage and dizzy. He could then do j.fierce, standing fierce, Hundred Bo Slap. I think that was a TOD if you did cross-up fierce and got more than 3 hits out of the bo slap...

> Raf had the coolest moves, but was the worst turtle. Leo had decent combos and a super that did *insane* damage, hit or blocked. It was actually better to jump into it and get hit out of the air than block it...

I think Raf was the worst turtle by default, but he was by no means a weak character. Leo's super was the strongest in the game (it did 95%!), but he could be hit out of it *so* easily that it was almost worthless.

> Mikey was decent, he beat the robot dude for free, in two different ways. Just keep doing the ball attack from close, beats every robot man attack and powers up your meter in about 6 seconds...or, just keep throwing "dragon breath." (Fireball) Comes out high and fast enough so that poor robo can't jump over at all, he is too slow off the ground and his legs stick down too far when he jumps.

Mikey rocks. Definitely the scrubbiest turtle with his great DP (even though it's a charge) and his awesome super (it was like Balrog's super in ST - a fully charged Mikey = no FBs except at full screen, though it was avoidable by jumping, which left Mikey open for 3 decades).

I'm not 100% sold on that second Mikey/Chromdome strategy though. Couldn't CD just match Fbs at long range, move in close and then sweep Mikey from mid-screen? CD's c.roundhouse was pretty long and fast. And one knockdown is potential death with CD. The first strategy you mention (roll repeatedly) sounds like it would work though. The only problem I see with that is human error - I remember messing up the ball motion and getting the FB and vice-verse quite a bit (characters should not have charge b,f and HCF motions together). Mess up once, CD can sweep Mikey, and then it's a whole different game...

> Shredder was sick, rushing uppercut was way too good. Half the characters couldn't do *anything* about it, sad.

Not to mention the best set of normals in the game, matched only perhaps by Chrome Dome.

> Damn, what was that robot called? Erghhhhh...ChromeDome! Pretty good other than his total wash againt Mikey, good tick throws, good range, fast meter building. (Although super was pretty sad)

Chrome Dome was awesome! In fact, I think I had him as the best character in the game at one point, if not top tier. He's a combination of Dhalsim with WW Zangief's repeat SPD ticks. One Electric Piledriver = death (just do EPD, walk up and repeat; even though characters could do wakeup AA, it was still a guessing game in his favour). His super did massive damage at least, but was hard to connect.

> Top Tier:
> Fish guy.
> Donatello
> Shredder

I can't agree with you on Armaddon. And I think Chrome Dome is better than Don and Shredder (or at least he can either beat/hang with those two).

> Bottom Tier:
> Raphael
> "Table Salt" Girl. ("Table Salt, Table Salt!" Well, whatever she said...the girl with the required female-character jumping butt attack. She beat *nobody.*)

LOL. You're talking about Aska. I thought she said "Turn out the lights!" when she did her DP. For some reason, I remember her as being a counter to Shredder. I think Shredder couldn't do jack about her hurricane spin move (her special one, not the super, though Shredder couldn't do jack about the super either; but then again, the only one who COULD do something about that super was War), while she could uppercut him out of pretty much anything.

I don't know about Raph being bottom tier. As I said, I thought Armaddon was ass. While War was one of my favourites (ghetto Bison ), I also think he was pretty crappy overall. I think he's more bottom of the tier above Aska (2nd? 3rd? Who knows) though...

> I never played as either Rat King or the last boss so I don't know about them.

Easily the best characters in the game. Rat King has the most danaging move (Rat Bomber), his standing roundhouse hits 2 or 3 times, has MASSIVE priority, and links into his sweep, which is an easy dizzy and about 45% damage done. Do it again for another 30-35% or so (this game had some harsh damage scaling, though not as bad as Guilty Gear X). His air dive kick was horizontal and went half-screen, had no start-up time, no recovery, and pretty much beat everything. His super was pretty crappy, at least (big explosion that covered about 1/3rd of the screen; think Shredder's Lightning Crusher with more range). Rat King's only counter was Karai, though as i said, if Rat King could get Karai in the corner it was game over thanks to that damn standing roundhouse.

As for Karai, not only is she a ridiculously strong character in general, she has the single cheapest move I've EVER seen: Her jumping fierce. It's a very fast diving punch that hits multiple times from the moment you hit punch all the way to when she hits the floor. It was instantaneous, had zero recovery time, and she could do it the instant she left the ground. In other words, it could chain into itself, a la AHVB (except that this required no meter!). If this move hit OR WAS BLOCKED, it was game over. It was a one-button infinite that either killed you, or put you in infinite block stun. She could just do j.fierce over and over, build meter, super (didn't do much damage, but it was free since you couldn't hit her out if it), and repeat. Unbelievable. Th only way to win was to make sure that move never made contact, which was almost impossible. I think Mikey had the best chance of doing it with his jab DP, but it still wasn't in his favour

To Josh-TheFunkDOC: Yeah, the SNES TMNT:TF was eons better than the Genesis version. And Casey sounds bad, but he *can't* be as bad as SNES Karai (Genesis Karai was totally different I think). No move in history (that isn't a glitch) is as broken as that woman's j.fierce. AHVB *wishes* it was that powerul ;p
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Posted by Taramoor on July 12th, 2001 08:30 AM:

I love TMNT, it's one of the few snes fighting roms I have. But now comes the question I was going to start a whole new thread/poll for:

Which of these old school/long forgotten yet still fairly badass (IMO) fighting games was the best?

Rise of the Robots: Reputed to be the first fighting game with a cpu that could learn all your cheapass tactics and throw them back at you, Rise of the Robots (As far as I know) cratered on impact and has been lost to the mists of time. Apparently, people didn't like a computer that was smarter than they were.

TMNT, Tournament Fighters (SNES/Gen): One of the first fighting games I can remember for the SNES, TMNT was a monstrous success upon introduction. People like playing as their comic-book heroes, and TMNT:TF hit shelves just when the turtle craze was at its peak. Cowabunga! Also, I'm not sure on this, but I think TMNT introduced the concept of the super meter into fighting games.

Clay Fighter: Who here remembers Clay Fighter? One of the more twisted fighting games to hit home, Clay Fighter was considered amazing because of its previously unseen use of interactive claymation. The only other place I've seen it was in a game called "Claymates" by the same company which pretty much... blew. Also, Clay Fighter's sequels introduced the first crossover character from another game, by bringing in Boogerman!

Brutal: Paws of Fury: Why was this game so cool? Dude, you were fighting using cartoon animals! Not to mention the incredible learning system, in which certain special moves could not be performed until the game actually taught them to you. And Prince Leon's "Power Chord" move was truly badass! And the last boss was a Shaolin-using Llama! (On the SNES anyway)

Justice League Task Force: You like playing with Marvel Characters don't you? Well why not try taking on the likes of Superman? C'mon, I DARE YA! With a rather weak storyline, and a choice of nine DC characters (Aquaman, Batman, Superman, Green Arrow, The Flash, Despero, Cheetah, Wonder Woman and Darkseid) the game kinda died, but I still thought it was a great idea.

Primal Rage: Mortal Kombat with a few dinosaurs, and a giant ape. You have no idea how many quarters I dropped into this game while it was in the arcades. SAURON owned everyone for free!

Shaq Fu: I'm not serious... I'm just putting it in here for the sake of semi-completeness. You could play as Shaquille O'Neal, founder of the lethal Martial Art Shaqido, and save the world from the evil... um... villian(ess?).

WeaponLord: (swiped from BlagenBerg's FAQ on GameFaqs) "WeaponLord is a one-on-one fighting game like Street Fighter 2 or Mortal Kombat. In short, the idea is to crush all of your opponents in single combat to win the game. But to keep it interesting, WeaponLord is combat between barbarions in a distant mythical land. If you like Conan, WeaponLord should be familiar territory"

Pretty Fighter: Choose from a school girl, a dominatrix, a stewardess, a nurse, a fast-food order girl, a homemaker, a volley ball player, a dancer, or a martial artist... then DUKE IT OUT! I should hate this game with a passion just for being stupid... but for some reason I can't bring myself to dislike it.

Killer Instinct: Not really forgotten (A couple months ago I went on a 32-match win streak over in Moscow, ID on their KI2 machine.) but still a thing of the past. KI was the first truly combo-intensive game, including the dread "ULTRA Ultra ultra.." followed by flinging your opponent off the edge of a building.

Ballz: I feel guilty even typing that word. Played it a few times, found it too bizarre EVEN FOR ME. And never touched it again.

Double Dragon: The Fighting Game: The ultimate SF ripoff, DD in and of itself wasn't overtly horrible. Some specials were a little TOO special (morphing into a rocket? You must be joking)

Eternal Champions: I LOVE this game! A wizard, a caveman, a cyborg-gladiator from the future, an assassin, a vampire, a cat burglar and a FROG! Add to that a deceptively simple fighting system, limits on super moves, and stage-based fatalities, and you've got a game that kicks some serious ass. (So I'm biased... so what?)

Power Moves: A ripoff of most SNK games, one-on-one fighting with some added depth to the stage (can kinda move in 3-dimensions, but not really), a boss that was damn hard, and some really cool-looking moves, this game wasn't the greatest, but it was pretty good.

Did I miss any? I would've mentioned Pit Fighter but... c'mon.

Posted by Dasrik on July 12th, 2001 08:59 AM:

Interesting convo about TMNT:TF. I have the ROMs, but never really played them, mostly because I could never find the movelists.

Words in defense of One Must Fall 2097 (plus trying to weasel out any OMF fans here):

* First off, let's leave tournament mode out of any OMF:2097 discussion. Tournament Mode was a fun thing to play with, but it was too cheap for competitive play, as any low short from a fully charged bot meant game over.

Okay, 2-player mode was probably the most fun mode in the game, because if you put on REHIT mode it was a game that actually rewarded long and complex combos. Objective: get your opponent dizzy with some well-placed hits, then execute your most damaging combo. Since it was easy to get the opponent cornered once they fell dizzy, this could turn pretty spectacular.

Now on to the robots:

* Jaguar. I wrote off this bot as the worst bot in the game once. Its moves were limp, slow in comparison to the likes of Electra and Shredder, and weak in comparison to Flail and Thorn. It didn't have a viable anti-air (crouch fierce was too slow), and since there was no block damage from specials, it couldn't really force you to jump with its fireballs. However, it's still solid all around, and it's also the only robot that has a real chance of stopping Gargoyle. The fireball is sufficient to stuff Garg's ground game, and in the air, the overhead slam will go through Garg's DP and cleanly beat his wing dive.

* Shadow. Shadow was MUCH better in older versions of the game, where its Shadow Grab could actually hit on the way up as anti-air. This was a great anti-crossup weapon, but unfortunately it was taken out for its latest incarnation. This is probably the least capable bot in the game because its shadows are so easy to hit. Once it got close, it had chain combos that could be messy if you blocked wrong. But Shadow lost hard to turtles.

* Thorn. If you love footsie games, Thorn was probably the best robot. It couldn't combo after throws, but it had powerful moves for every occasion that were safe IN THE RIGHT RANGE... the Power Kick and crouch roundhouse for midscreen, and standing jabs and strongs from up close, and crouching strong-crouching fierce juggle for anti-air. Plus, if you actually CONNECTED with one of its hits... ugh. The combos it could pull could end the match QUICKLY.

* Pyros. All pressure. A lot of robots can't do squat about Pyros once it gets up close and does Dive Punches all day. And its kicks (flames) were unmatched in priority. It didn't have a lot to offer in ways of combos, though, so a dizzied opponent didn't have a lot to fear.

* Electra. Ugh. Electra was a beast. From the right range, no one short of Gargoyle could do anything about its jump punch, and its low short just couldn't lose to much. It was not to be confused for Blanka, the Rolling Thunder was nothing like Blanka's, but that move had a lot of stun to it and could be a good counter attack to something with a lot of lag. Plus, Electric Shards, while weak, could set up all sorts of nasty juggles. Once you're dizzy, consider yourself Dead Meat on a Stick.

* Katana. The Corkscrew Blade was invincible, as damn near everyone who picks up this bot finds out. But that's not all - its Head Stomp would beat everything, and the wall bounce attack meant corner trapping was impossible. Plus, it had the slide that had near-zil recovery and plenty powerful moves. This bot could be a royal pain if mastered.

* Flail. This was probably the hardest bot to get the hang of as it had strange hitbox prioirities (particularly in its standing flail attacks). But it had the uniqueness of being able to be played in two different ways depending on your pilot - abusing its flail spin and punch priorities with an agile pilot, or a lot of poking and grappling with a strong one. The payoff of its spin throw was pretty hefty, and it was rather easy to get one off of a crouch short anti-air.

* Gargoyle. #1 with a bullet. Despite what anyone on the OMF board might say, I'm perfectly willing to prove my point if it can be set up. A perfect Gargoyle cannot be beat by any other robot short of Jaguar (who can only stalemate him). It had the only real DP move in the game which could be cancelled into moves on its way down; a quick wing swoop move which was a mad pressurer; and the Wing Charge which was a lightning fast counter move and got the opponent dizzy fast. It's like a hybrid between Guile and Blanka.

* Shredder. Shredder lost a lot of its power when people started figuring out counters to the flip kick, his most potent move - think Fei Long's flying kick in ST. It could get close fast and bust a combo that would get you dizzy before you know it - you couldn't really risk doing moves that left you open for any length of time, or Shredder would sail over you and smack you. But the flip kick was wanting in priority, meaning if the opponent suckers it out, be ready to pay up the wazoo.

* Chronos. In many ways, Chronos is just a weakened Electra with the ability to hop right out of the corner. Its freeze was a nice thing to have, but it often caught the opponent in positions that Chronos couldn't easily take advantage of. Its wall kick (where he hopped towards a wall and appeared on the other side kicking) meant fireballs were useless on him (and made Chronos a good weapon on cheap-ass Nova). But it was just outmatched by superior fighting robots.

* Nova. Nova was a tough bastard. It had an array of projectiles and moves for any occasion, and its belly flop couldn't be beat by a great deal of moves (short of the standard Garg DP/Corkscrew Blade/Flail crouch short). Most of all, its earthquake smash, an unblockable hit on the ground, made turtling pointless and forced its opponents to have to jump in order to win. Certain bots, of course, could take all sorts of advantage of this, but if you didn't have some kind of quick move to drop you out of the air, Nova would own you.
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Posted by Dasrik on July 12th, 2001 09:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Taramoor
Rise of the Robots: Reputed to be the first fighting game with a cpu that could learn all your cheapass tactics and throw them back at you, Rise of the Robots (As far as I know) cratered on impact and has been lost to the mists of time. Apparently, people didn't like a computer that was smarter than they were.

Rise of the Robots was a rip-off of One Must Fall 2097 (check the dates, I'm right), with an odd "spirit power" AOF-esque... thing and a hit detection system that veered dangerously close to random. In short, ROTR was indeed garbage.
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Posted by Crayfish on July 12th, 2001 12:09 PM:

Fighters History Dynamite

Yeah Fighters History is a top game. For those who can't remember, Capcom actualy took Data East to court over this game saying it was too similar to SF, I can't remember what happened but it was a bit of a silly charge considering the canibalistic nature of arcade games, look at Final Fight after Double Dragon. I remember reading that it had a breif spell at the top of the Japanese arcade charts above SF but it was never that popular in the west. The only reason I can think that the game didn't do that well here is poor character design and/or lack of a gimic, because it played better than the other first wave of post SF cash-in games MK, Fatal Fury, World Heroes, AOF etc... I mean Mizoguchi and Samchay were cool characters but were basicaly Ryu and Sagat, Liu Feilin is Chun Li if she worked in a whorehouse to make ends meet and the rest of the cast ranged from ultra cheesy to just plain bland (although the 94 sequel Fighters History Dynamite/Karnovs Revenge on the Neo Geo had the return of Karnov, Data Easts own oddball platform mascot who I think is a brilliant character). The weakspot system for dizzying I think was a great idea, it added extra greater depth and individuality to matchups (if it wasn't for the aformentioned court case I think Capcom would have worked this system into SF), but it wasn't enough to tempt players accross over from SF. Fatal Fury had great character design and a whole bunch of atmospheric tricks (who remembers the storm brewing up on Tung Fu Rue's stage then pouring down in the 3rd round? Looked awsome at the time), MK had its Fatalaties, digitised graphics and unique control system and World Heroes had Deathmatches (I think ADK programers must have listened in on kids talking in an arcade in 92, I remember saying to my mates "yeah SF should have fire and spikes you can push your opponent onto"). All these these games had a gameplay or stylistic angle but FH was just "not as good as SF". Its a shame you never hear from Data East now days (anyone know
anything?) but in the late 80's they were one of the top companies puting out classics like Midnight Ressistance and buying big licences like Robocop.
Anyway back to Fighters History. Anyone know about teirs?
I would have to say Mizoguchi is up there because he has a horizinotal Dragon Punch! You can blast right through fireballs and just about any low attack with a little anticipation.
In Fighters History Dynamite/Karnovs Revenge, Lee's Super (did they have these Supers in the first game?) just comes right out of nowhere
and kanes your ass.
Marstorius (as whack as he is) is like a Geif players dream. He has a command crossover, a Balrog style dash attack and his SPD
move sucks you in and is only a half circle command!

But this is all speculation cause I don't get any comp on these games.

Anyone played "Fighting Spirit" on the Amiga home computer? I have seen pics of it on the net, it looks like a 93 era SNK game like Fatal Fury Special. I would love to hear about this. While were talking about the Amiga, anyone remember Body Blows?

Crayfish.
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Posted by Renegade on July 12th, 2001 03:54 PM:

Dayam... i checked back and got some mad convo on TMNT TF.... that game was TOO good.
I think we banned the bosses at my house. They were just too powerful.
I used 'scrubby' mike alot "Rising Thunder!"... and really liked ChromeDome. Best friend won alot with leo. shit, now i'm gonna have to find a copy of that game... i'm fiending to play it.
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Posted by Spider-Dan on July 12th, 2001 04:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Crayfish

Anyway back to Fighters History. Anyone know about teirs?
I would have to say Mizoguchi is up there because he has a horizinotal Dragon Punch! You can blast right through fireballs and just about any low attack with a little anticipation.

I'd say the tiers go something like this (alphabetical):

First:
Lee- low fierce->QCF+P is a safe ranged poke that does ~35% if connected, QCF+K anti-air is really good, QCF+P rush does ~30% on a normal hit and is very safe, and he has the most obscure (best) dizzy spot in the game (kneepads). If you didn't notice, SF3 Y/Y twins are a direct ripoff of Lee (how ironic).

Marstorius-
HCF/HCB grab has WW SPD range with no whiff animation, has a very low jump (there aren't any high fireballs in the game to punish this), he can combo into SPD which means any connecting jump attack has 30% tacked on for free, and unlike Ryoko he gets full damage at max range of SPD.

Ryoko-
HCF/HCB grab has two ranges, at full range it's a teleport grab for 15%, but within one char. width it's a jumping flip for ~45%. If you connect a close jumpin 50% is gone (she can also combo into SPD). Low fierce is a great knockdown poke.

Second:
Matlok-
Low fierce is guaranteed to beat or trade every air attack in the game. Sonic boom + low fierce puts him here almost by itself. He has no reversal attack (hurricane has no priority) and sonic boom lag is too long for him to fight FBers head to head, plus his pokes suck.

Mizoguchi-
Solid character, his sliding DP does not have DP priority vs low pokes (sweeps), and he doesn't have that extra bit to help him out. Can't do his specials against grapplers.

Ray-
Dynamite is an awesome poke, very safe rush move (great meaty attack). Wheel kick is good anti-air and mid-range poke, but he can't really do either of those moves against the grapplers, as they earn him 15-45% damage if blocked.

Samchay-
Specials are decent, but his throw is his weapon; against everyone but Lee and Marstorius, throw will result in dizzy after 3 hits (he punches/kicks their dizzy spot). He tacks on a simpe combo for 60% damage after throw, which leaves him with ~30% to do on his own (only one dizzy per round). That 30% is what puts him in second tier.

Bottom:
Jean-
Instant first frame attacking hundred hand slap is good, but not enough. Pokes are bad, and rose FB has too much delay.

Feilin-
Punching bag, her flash kick (actually a punch) doesn't even knock down, and her air FB goes almost straight down.

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Posted by margalis on July 12th, 2001 07:18 PM:

Hey Ultima. Am I still a member of Scrub Voltron? (Was I ever? I think so, but I'm not quite sure. Maybe I was the honorary 6th man)

Ahh, the memories. TMNT:TF had to be the best console only fighting game.

quote:
Originally posted by Ultima
Hmm. In my experience, while Armaddon's (aka fish dude) charge time was very low and he had the fastest FB in the game, I thought his anti-air move sucked because of its arc - he shot out way too far ahead, and I would often shoot under my opponent a la Cyclop's fierce gene Splice (but worse). He also had the worst super in the game - easy to avoid, did next to no block damage, and did crap damage even if it hit. I may be wrong, but I also don't recall him having any decent normals except for c.short and c.roundhouse.

In general the supers weren't so hot, which was a good thing IMO. Most were either just plain bad (Raf) or only useful for chipping in certain situations. (ChromeDome, Leo)

As far as Armaddon goes, I never had a problem missong with his flash kick type thing, although I did remember it went out pretty far. Maybe I just got used to it.

In general with turtles, since it was console only I didn't play with a huge crowd of people so individual fighting styles probably effect the rankings a lot more than they should. Hmm...ZNES network turtle battle anyone?

quote:
I think Raf was the worst turtle by default, but he was by no means a weak character. Leo's super was the strongest in the game (it did 95%!), but he could be hit out of it *so* easily that it was almost worthless.

Raf had the least useful special moves. His "chest buster" and psycho-crusher served the same basic need, and his fireball, while cool looking, took a really long time coming out and came out pretty low. Raf also had a totally different voice for his chest buster than for his other moves....very disconcerting.

quote:

I'm not 100% sold on that second Mikey/Chromdome strategy though. Couldn't CD just match Fbs at long range, move in close and then sweep Mikey from mid-screen? CD's c.roundhouse was pretty long and fast. And one knockdown is potential death with CD. The first strategy you mention (roll repeatedly) sounds like it would work though. The only problem I see with that is human error - I remember messing up the ball motion and getting the FB and vice-verse quite a bit (characters should not have charge b,f and HCF motions together). Mess up once, CD can sweep Mikey, and then it's a whole different game...

Mikey fireballs travel fast, come out fast, and you can throw one after the other very quickly. (You can do the same with Raf, but his fireballs come out lower and slower) There is no way CD could keep up with that. Hmm..were there any fireballs that CD's spark would actually go under instead of hitting?

Damn, you reminded me about the special move overlap. I didn't have a big problem with Mikey because in general when you are charged, you are going to get the charge move even if you wanted the fireball motion. Against CD with the ball attack strategy, I always wanted the ball attack. And if I was using the FB strategy I just wouldn't charge.

For Raf it was a nightmare though. Accidental psycho crushers got you killed in a hurry.

quote:

Chrome Dome was awesome! In fact, I think I had him as the best character in the game at one point, if not top tier. He's a combination of Dhalsim with WW Zangief's repeat SPD ticks. One Electric Piledriver = death (just do EPD, walk up and repeat; even though characters could do wakeup AA, it was still a guessing game in his favour). His super did massive damage at least, but was hard to connect.

His super was good mostly for finishing the round with block damage...but ChromeDome was really damn good. His piledriver was just down, up + 2 buttons, and he range was pretty nice. You could piledrive right after a blocked spark from close. (Maybe even if it hit, I don't remember)

TMNT really needed a sequel to even things out a bit and tone down a few of the more broken moves like Shredder's Rush, Don's head spin, etc. It is a *very* counter-character oriented game.

Posted by Spider-Dan on July 12th, 2001 10:18 PM:

Did anyone play Groove on Fight (Power Instinct 3)? It's a really good game, as long as you ban two moves. (Falco's Good Luck and Remi's witch transformation). It subscribes to the balance-by-overpoweredness school of fighters which always makes for a fun game. Falco and Remi dominate all (including Bristol-D).
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Posted by Gen-An on July 12th, 2001 10:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Did anyone play Groove on Fight (Power Instinct 3)? It's a really good game, as long as you ban two moves. (Falco's Good Luck and Remi's witch transformation). It subscribes to the balance-by-overpoweredness school of fighters which always makes for a fun game. Falco and Remi dominate all (including Bristol-D).

I picked that game up earlier this year, haven't really played it vs a human. Care to go more in depth as to its quality? I figured it was a joke fighter...
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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 12th, 2001 10:57 PM:

Heh, I'm learnin' a lot here. And I thought I knew a lot about obscure games...

And Ult, I definitely never suggested Casey was more broken than Karai. I think he gets bonus points by being a regular character, though, like SS2 Ukyo. And BTW, does anybody know whether the bosses are even playable in the Gen version?

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by Hentai on July 12th, 2001 10:59 PM:

anyone out there play knuckle heads? or ka ge ki? time killers was the first game to have air blocking, funny huh.

Posted by margalis on July 12th, 2001 11:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hentai
anyone out there play knuckle heads? or ka ge ki? time killers was the first game to have air blocking, funny huh.

Knuckle Heads was the 4 player game, right? I played as the fat Greek guy with a hammer or something...it was on the border between a fighting game and a Final FIght type game. I remember you had to press a button to jump?

Posted by Crayfish on July 14th, 2001 12:28 AM:

Spider Dan, thanks for the info on FH. Do you know anything about Fatal Fury Special and World Heroes 2?
Power Instinct 3 looked good, I tried to get it on import for my Saturn, please tell some about it.
I like the look of Knuckle Heads but MAME doesn't run it that well yet.

Crayfish.
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Posted by Ultima on July 14th, 2001 04:47 AM:

> Hey Ultima. Am I still a member of Scrub Voltron? (Was I ever? I think so, but I'm not quite sure. Maybe I was the honorary 6th man)

Heh. IIRC, the official parts were me, Dark Schneider ("a brother in SF ignorance"), VGO Ken and Stiltman ("just keep kicking him"). I know we never had all 5 parts filled.

> Ahh, the memories. TMNT:TF had to be the best console only fighting game.

ENT! It makes me wonder why Konami never did anything else in the fighting game department (lost the license and then lost interest maybe?).

> > I think Raf was the worst turtle by default, but he was by no means a weak character.

> Raf had the least useful special moves. His "chest buster" and psycho-crusher served the same basic need, and his fireball, while cool looking, took a really long time coming out and came out pretty low. Raf also had a totally different voice for his chest buster than for his other moves....very disconcerting.

Yeah, I remember the "other" voice. Weird. As for his specials, he could do some decent rushdown with well-placed Chest busters - that thing had way better priority, start up time and recovery than Bison's Scissors Kick ever had. His torpedo was bad, but he *could* do torpedo -> throw ticks like CE/HF Bison. He also had a really good low fierce for anti-air (Alpha 2 shoto low fierce "one button DP" like). His FB was average, and the usefulness of super depended entirely on who he was facing - Shredder, for example, could reflect(!) his super back at him.

> > I'm not 100% sold on that second Mikey/Chromdome strategy though. Couldn't CD just match Fbs at long range, move in close and then sweep Mikey from mid-screen? CD's c.roundhouse was pretty long and fast. And one knockdown is potential death with CD. The first strategy you mention (roll repeatedly) sounds like it would work though. The only problem I see with that is human error - I remember messing up the ball motion and getting the FB and vice-verse quite a bit (characters should not have charge b,f and HCF motions together). Mess up once, CD can sweep Mikey, and then it's a whole different game...

> Mikey fireballs travel fast, come out fast, and you can throw one after the other very quickly. (You can do the same with Raf, but his fireballs come out lower and slower) There is no way CD could keep up with that. Hmm..were there any fireballs that CD's spark would actually go under instead of hitting?

I don't think there was any projectile Chromespark would go under, no.

Anyway, I remember Chromespark had *deceptively* fast recovery (jab version I think). From beyond half-screen, CD could keep up with everyone in projectile wars (not sure about Armaddon) even when it looked like he couldn't. Any closer, CD could sweep his opponent if they tried to FB. At least that's how I remember it. You're right in that since it was played mostly at home with few people, individual fighting styles DO probably effect the rankings a lot more than they should.

> TMNT really needed a sequel to even things out a bit and tone down a few of the more broken moves like Shredder's Rush, Don's head spin, etc. It is a *very* counter-character oriented game.

Yeah. Almost ST-like in its counter-character orientation.

I'll never know why Konami never made a sequel. Did the game not sell or soemthing? I remember it was rated highly by every mag I read and by everyone who played it. I think an arcade sequel version of this game would have been awesome...
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Posted by Middlekick on July 14th, 2001 04:41 PM:

Hey Dan, although I really suck at fighters' history, I would really like to know your rankings on fighters' history dynamite...particularly Zazie and Yungmie. That's assuming you've played it
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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 15th, 2001 08:21 AM:

Hey...just tried TMNT, and I can already tell that Ultima and margalis are right about it.

The reason I'm posting is to ask for confirmation on some combos with the Turtles. Since I'm playing this on my keyboard for now, I can't have a 2nd player attempt to block. So even though these all do look like real combos to me, I need to be sure...

Raphael:

Crossup Roundhouse from a distance, C.Shortx4 -> Short Chest Buster. This is instant dizzy, and if done twice it's about 85-90% damage.

Leonardo:

Same crossup as above, C.Shortx3 -> Jab Endless Screw. Oddly enough, this does more damage than Raph's combo, but it doesn't dizzy. *shrug*

Michaelangelo:

Same crossup again, C.Jabx3 -> Fierce Rising Thunder. BIG damage and dizzy, if done again with the jab DP it does 95%.

So are these all real combos?

Thanks in advance,
Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by kalok on July 15th, 2001 10:31 AM:

sorry!i am also master of balrog

Posted by Crayfish on July 15th, 2001 05:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ultima
>

ENT! It makes me wonder why Konami never did anything else in the fighting game department (lost the license and then lost interest maybe?).

Actualy Konami did make an arcade SF2 clone in late 92/93, I only saw it a couple of times so it probably didn't have that wide a release.
I can't recal the name but it featured huge sprites (even bigger than AOF if my memory serves me correctly), this and its lacklustre performance in the arcades were probably the main reasons why it wasn't converted to the concurrent 16 bit consoles.
From what I can remember there was the token Shoto character who had a Dragon punch that hit like a Hundred Hand Slap on the way up, also an Arabian Nights caracter like Maherl from Breakers and a Dhalsim character who might have been one and the same???
Anyone remember what this game is?

MK2

Are there any Mortal Kombat 2 fans here?
I loved MK2 back in 93/94. It was the only game that really offered a totaly different fighting experience to SF2, it also invented Juggle Combo's which blew me away when I first saw them.
There is a vid over at gamecombos.com that features some Shang Tsung/Meleena fireball glitch combos I had never seen before. The vid is called : gcc-forum-01.
What were your fave strats/combos/glitches?
One of my faves was with Shang Tsung, turn into Sub Zero perform the first part of his Freeze Fatality then change back in time to perform Shng Tsung's burst out Fatality, on the Snes the Ice would crash and turn green.
Anyone know anthing about teirs?
Back then Meleena was top (mainly cause of that sky drop and floor roll specials) and Reptile was bottom .
My fave was Kung Lao, that whirly round move was awsome, you could use it like a Dragon Punch to hit sweeps then land them on a Hat!

Crayfish.

Crayfish.
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Posted by Cablescrub on July 15th, 2001 07:16 PM:

does anyone here remember that shitty game pitfighter?
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Posted by margalis on July 16th, 2001 03:23 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC
Hey...just tried TMNT, and I can already tell that Ultima and margalis are right about it.

[clip turtle combos]

So are these all real combos?

Thanks in advance,
Josh the FunkDOC

Man dude, it has been a long time. I haven't played since it since maybe 3-4 months after it came out. Anyway they sound like real combos. The turtles combo system is basically SF2:HF, you can interrupt normals with specials and link air attacks to ground attacks.

I do remember doing things like jumpin, low something, endless screw, so I'm sure your crossup combos are comboing as well. I don't see why they shouldn't, unless there was some restriction on interupting multiple jabs, and I don't think there was. Anyway, play Armaddon for a while and tell us how good he is, that seems to be the major area of disagreement.

Posted by Ultima on July 16th, 2001 04:43 AM:

To Josh-TheFunkDOC:

Those combos sound legit. The only thing I'm not sure of is the number of jabs/shorts. I used to do no more than 2 jabs/shorts before cancelling into any special because any more and my opponent would block. However, back then I wasn't as adept at buffering multiple weak attacks like I am now, so maybe it was just me sucking at combos.

In general, jumpin/cross up, some low weak attacks, special works for most characters. There aren't many links (like jab, fierce) that I can recall - the only one I can recall is Wingnut, who could do s.jab, s.fierce I *think*. There are also no juggles (at least none that I recall) - this is strictly old-school HF-type engine we're talking about here.

To Cablescrub:

Yeah, I remember Pitfighter. That was a transition game in my country - it was the game we played after the TMNT craze died down and before the Sf2 craze started up (well, sorta; Simpsons held our attention for a while before Sf2 since SF2 was ignored when it first came for being too expensive and too complicated-looking). What a piece of shit that game was. I'll never forgot how the game glitched badly when I saw some people trying to finish it - you know ohw the screen scrolls up an down when you move, right? Well on the last boss's creen, at some point the characters were all fighting near the bottom of the field, but for some reason the screen view jumped to the very top of the field and got stuck there, so you couldn't see jack shit. All you heard was screams, groans, punches and kicks, and you saw lifebars getting drained. They actually finished it lack that, but if the game had any ending, we never saw it bcause I think somebody pressed a button by accidentand then the "Congratulations" screen came up, game over. Bah...

To Crayfish:

The only arcade game I know of by Konami is Martial Champions. Never saw it myself. It came out around the same time as Samurai Shodown, and that's all I know about it. When I wondered why konami never did anything else in the fighter department, I really meant why did they never do anything with the TMNT license in the fighter department again, seeing that their first outing was so good and universally praised as far as I know. That's why I wonder if the game didn't sell or they lost the license or something...
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Posted by BabiG on July 16th, 2001 06:26 AM:

Interesting fact, Justice League Task Force for SNES was made by Blizzard, of WarCraft, Starcraft, Diablo and Lost Vikings 2 fame.

Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 16th, 2001 09:24 AM:

Didn't have much time to play anything today. However, I did test out a few more things with the Turtles.

Crossing up with Raph's combo doesn't make much difference. If you don't cross up, just omit one low short. It still dizzies.

Same for Leo, since his crossup combo doesn't dizzy anyway.

Mikey, though, you need the crossup to dizzy.

Now then, I got a bit more into Don. Ultima, are you sure Hundred Bo Slap combos after the fierce? I tested it with all his special moves a buncha times and the fierce isn't cancelable. Best I could do was this:

Crossup Roundhouse, S.Jab -> Fierce Hundred Bo Slap

Not half bad, since that's still a dizzy combo, as is crossup Roundhouse to standing Fierce.

So next time I'll mess around with some of the others, including ArmaGGon.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by Crayfish on July 16th, 2001 10:22 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ultima

To Crayfish:

The only arcade game I know of by Konami is Martial Champions. Never saw it myself. It came out around the same time as Samurai Shodown, and that's all I know about it.

Ah yes thats it, found a strategy guide here:

http://www.gameadvice.com/cgibin/faq.cgi?game=m/MartialChampions-Victar.txt

The sprites looked so big cause it was a vertical monitor game, I remember the super high jumps bit like in modern Capcom games. The is also a PC-engine versoin of this game, anyone played it?
Any other good Pc-engine only fighters?

Crayfish.
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Posted by Middlekick on July 16th, 2001 12:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Crayfish

Any other good Pc-engine only fighters?

Crayfish.

Flash Hiders, I never played it, but it got rave reviews in all the gaming mags(namely gamefan and egm iirc) The was also a super famicom version aswell.
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Posted by Crayfish on July 16th, 2001 01:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Middlekick

Flash Hiders, I never played it, but it got rave reviews in all the gaming mags(namely gamefan and egm iirc) The was also a super famicom version aswell.

Thanks, I'll look that up. BTW Middlekick, I think I heard your name mentioned when I was in Goodge.st playing ST the day before the last A3 ranking battle, were you there? Please refer to my post about my London day out in the "GYL teaches darkest secret thread"

Crayfish.
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Posted by kalok on July 16th, 2001 01:43 PM:

this is the end of shoto life!:>

Posted by Mummy-B on July 16th, 2001 04:10 PM:

I like Fatal Fury 3 and Shin Samurai Spirits... KOF 94 even... still play them on my Neo Geo CD from time to time...
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Posted by Spider-Dan on July 16th, 2001 04:23 PM:

Middlekick:
I only played a bit of FHD. Yungmie's tiger knee air FB seems ok but not really abusable (moves too fast for Guile-type traps and too slow for O.Sagat-style traps, plus she has no DP), and she seems to have a lack of moves. She'd fit in well in FH but in FHD where everyone is beefed up, I couldn't do anything with her.

I never really figured out Zazie, but if you've played against CPU Zazie then you'd have to think he must be good.

Overall I'd say the rankings are pretty similar, Jean and Samchay trade places and Ray moves up into top tier (air wheel kick + improved Dynamite + light speed fireballs) but Lee, Marstorius, Ryoko are still great (it's still a thrower's game). Clown and Karnov didn't seem that great (probably a lack of trying with Karnov, as he has a lot of the same tools).

Crayfish:
Groove on Fight (PI3) is a tag-team game, very similar to XSF but with the KOF94/95 assist element (partner jumps in for a tiny hit). The game is actually pretty complex, and every character has parries, double jumps, dash combos, launchers, etc. It reminds me of a sillier version of a tag team Guilty Gear (GG1 was produced by Atlus, after all). I'd say that even with the banned moves, GOF is less broken than GG1 though.
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Posted by Crayfish on July 16th, 2001 04:42 PM:

Spider Dan, how do the Supers come into all this in FHD. I find Lee's to be very effective, no warning, it just blasts out.

Crayfish.
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Posted by Ultima on July 16th, 2001 09:23 PM:

To Josh-TheFunkDOC:

Hmm. You may be right about the s.fierce being non cancellable. All I remember is that I used to do j.fierce, s.fierce (2 hits) to dizzy, then another combo starting with corss-up j.fierce and ending with the Bo slash. I probably used s.jab and just mashed fierce, and got mixed up with the non-cancellable s.fierce. Either that, or I skipped the s.jab and just mashed on fierce when I jumped in with it to go straight into the the Bo SLash when I landed. I think it was the latter, actually...
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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 17th, 2001 05:22 AM:

Heh heh...when I said I'd play the game again and add my thoughts to the Armaggon debate and stuff, I forgot that I'm busy for the next couple days. Anyway, I had a thought: margalis earlier mentioned the possibility of ZSNES Turtle netplay, and I'd love to do that with one of you guys. Anybody interested?

Josh the FunkDOC

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Just call me "Josh"; makes it easier on all of us.

Posted by mondu_the_fat on July 17th, 2001 11:33 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BabiG
Interesting fact, Justice League Task Force for SNES was made by Blizzard, of WarCraft, Starcraft, Diablo and Lost Vikings 2 fame.

I guess that's the skeleton in their closet...

Posted by margalis on July 17th, 2001 07:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC
Heh heh...when I said I'd play the game again and add my thoughts to the Armaggon debate and stuff, I forgot that I'm busy for the next couple days. Anyway, I had a thought: margalis earlier mentioned the possibility of ZSNES Turtle netplay, and I'd love to do that with one of you guys. Anybody interested?

Josh the FunkDOC

Does the ZNES net play work OK, I've never tried it. I would be down for some netplay, but I need to get a gamepad for my PC first. I just got into emulators a bit again, and I'm sick of going onto Kaillera and getting beat; my reputation is getting pretty scrubby...I might want to practice a bit before as well, since I haven't played the game in like 7 years.

The good news is that both Ultima and I are on the East Coast, and you are in Ohio, so the lag should be OK. Anyway, send me an e-mail next week ( [email-masked] ) or just respond to this thread.

I would also love to get something going on Kaillera at some point.

Posted by Ultima on July 17th, 2001 09:54 PM:

I've never tried ZNES' net play either (in fact, I've never used ZNES - last SNES emulator I used was SNES9.x, and that was well over a year ago). I should look into that, but I need a gamepad as well - the D-pad on the one I have now is fucked up (barely any left, up=left or down-left).

I don't think I can run Kaliera - my machine is way too slow.

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Posted by Crayfish on July 18th, 2001 12:54 AM:

Here's a really obscure one. An unrelesed prototype on the Neo Geo called Warriors of the Fates. Check this link:

http://www.neogeoforlife.com/prototype/wotf.shtml

Shame it wasn't released, its got that rough round the edges, cheesy old school look to it that I kind of like.

This thread has become the Turtles thread, never expected that, but its cool, Im glad people are getting together to discuss great games from their past.
Where are all the fans of the other games? Am I the only dedicated old schooler here?

Crayfish.
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If you only ever download one movie your whole life: This should be it.

Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 18th, 2001 06:37 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ultima
I've never tried ZNES' net play either (in fact, I've never used ZNES - last SNES emulator I used was SNES9.x, and that was well over a year ago). I should look into that, but I need a gamepad as well - the D-pad on the one I have now is fucked up (barely any left, up=left or down-left).

I don't think I can run Kaliera - my machine is way too slow.

Um...if you guys can ever find a good PC gamepad, please tell me. I've bought like 3 and they've all sucked. Well, the last one I got would've been good, were it not for the fact that you couldn't configure the buttons. So, there was no Start or Select button (those were for adjusting speed or something) or L and R buttons (Those were for rapid-fire). Seriously, the keyboard was better than any of them.

Speaking of good gamepads, the lack of them is why I don't think I could be the best judge of Armaggon. I'm kinda weak with charge characters on a keyboard for some reason.

I did find out a bunch about his uppercut, though. One being, don't do this move early. If you hit the enemy when he's higher up, it will trade hits *way* too damned often.

Also, I'm sure you well remember to NEVER USE IT ON THE GROUND. Sure, the startup invincibility is very nice, but it has the whole World Warrior DP thing going.

However, that startup invincibility I mentioned is the cause of the one good purpose of this move: *Late* anti-air. The Roundhouse version, especially, has a lot of that startup. So learn to time it to go through stuff and then it'll be good.

And there you have it. Oh yeah, and is it just me or is his normal move set horrendous?

What else...Ultima, you've *never* used ZSNES?

...

...

Beats the living hell out of SNES9x. Especially if you're interested in playing the original Star Ocean.

Josh the FunkDOC
Dealing with the fact that it'll be a long time before the translation patch for that game comes out...

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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 18th, 2001 06:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Crayfish
This thread has become the Turtles thread, never expected that, but its cool, Im glad people are getting together to discuss great games from their past.
Where are all the fans of the other games? Am I the only dedicated old schooler here?

Crayfish.

Hey, I posted Violence Fight stuff! How come nobody replied to that?

Seriously...I'm interested in seeing Fatal Fury Special talk. I can't add too much since Duck King's the only character I played in that game. 1 question about him, do you know if his low C links after his standing or low A?

A couple more questions for you, Crayfish...how in the hell do you play Tung? I had always thought he was the absolute worst.

And one that I asked before with no reply...what is the "Guard Attack" you referred to at the beginning of this thread? I like knowing game-breaking things.

Now, then, to do my part to try and get the ball rolling here, anybody interested in Duck combos or general strategy? He definitely doesn't deserve to be as low-ranked as he was by Gamest or whoever.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Just call me "Josh"; makes it easier on all of us.

Posted by kalok on July 18th, 2001 01:43 PM:

kick ass

Posted by Crayfish on July 18th, 2001 04:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC

Hey, I posted Violence Fight stuff! How come nobody replied to that?

Hey man sorry if I missed your post, I must have passed over it while scimming over Turtle bsed posts. I'll go back and check it out

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC

Seriously...I'm interested in seeing Fatal Fury Special talk. I can't add too much since Duck King's the only character I played in that game. 1 question about him, do you know if his low C links after his standing or low A?

Sorry, I've only played Duck a couple of times. Looks to have good potential though, invunerable Dragon, safe bounceout after Blanka Ball, ST Vega type sweep etc..

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC

A couple more questions for you, Crayfish...how in the hell do you play Tung? I had always thought he was the absolute worst.

The way I play him is totaly dependant on keeping at a medium close range, just outside most normals, he's strong there.
Try to think of the Shou-Ha fireball as just a giant invunerable hit box you can put infront of yuorself on command, kind of like a huge Yoga Flame. It will blast most normals, does excellent chip damage, makes an excellent meaty attack as the hit box hangs around for ages after you have thrown it, you can land opponents on it who jump in at certain ranges and if you trade hits with other fireballs you always come off better because it does almost double the damage (this technique is especially usefull against wayward ex-student Cheng *Look on my avatar to see the tactic in use!).
His crouching Feirce has good priority at full range and can be cancelled into the Shou-Ha.
The crouching Roundhouse has much better range than it seems and can go under many fireballs, this is especially usefull as most characters fireball throwing frames step forward slightly so you whack their feet out from under them for free. This can also be cancelled into the Shou-Ha to form a good push out combo if they block.
The Sen-Shippo lunge punch is like Cammy's cannon Drill in ST, it has a long recovery time. The key is to use it at a range where it only just clips the opponent at the end of its motion, this will bounce you out to safety and score chip damage.
Working at this close range rally pays off when you cand do Tung's Super. Try to tag the Super onto blocked attacks, it does huge chip damage and pushes the opponent right back. When you get this down you can really put the pressure on inclose (this technique is so usefull I often take an extra hit just to get the bar flashing red).
The Gekihou (vertical spirit attack) is usefull with really early anticipation (cause it takes soo long to come out, they should have made this a Flash Kick motion not Hundred Hands ), once it is out though it can stop many attack, especially dash attacks like Duck King's Blanka Ball. It can also avoid most fireballs, the other day Cheng threw one of his arcing fireballs on my head and it fell right through me onto the floor! I'll have to practice with this move more cause I bet you can do some bizzare things with it.
When inclose try to get the RessenKyaku (grab and kick move) off, it seems to have a little bit of suck in range like a SPD, having trouble getting it off on my pads though. If you find out the exact range please post.
His standing double hit Roundhouse can be worked into combos for huge damage, you can cancel the second hit into a special and even the Super!
Finaly remember how small Tung is, very hard to hit.
I don't really know how strong my Tung is cause I don't get any comp on this game , but the character just really appeals to me (I grew up on Shaw Bros kung Fu movies, anyone here seen One Armed Boxer 2 aka Master of the Flying Guillotine. The old master character in that is f**knig mad, also Dhalsim is in that movie!!)
That all I can think of right now, anyother Master Tan Players, please contribute.

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC

And one that I asked before with no reply...what is the "Guard Attack" you referred to at the beginning of this thread? I like knowing game-breaking things.

The Guard attack is performed by:

Tapping Back then Toward + A just before an attack hits you,
or just
Toward + A if you are already blocking.

It is an invunerable attack (usually a punch) that counters just about anything even Supers! Its like a SF3 parry that hits back! You can even dodge fireballs withj it. Each Guard attack is different, Tungs for instance is a rubber armed anti air but it still beats all groung attacks. I try not to use it cause it basicaly negates most of the strategy in the game, I mean why would you use any other attack?. I can't beleive SNK put in such a depth destroying Super move?!? Must have been the same muppett who thought up the line system (somethingelse I don't use). IMO Take away line system and Guard attack and you have twice the game.

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC

Now, then, to do my part to try and get the ball rolling here, anybody interested in Duck combos or general strategy? He definitely doesn't deserve to be as low-ranked as he was by Gamest or whoever.
Josh the FunkDOC

Cmon people you heard the man! FFSpecial experts we need you.
BTW Josh check out the brilliant FFSpecial combo FAQ by Frank Syma, for Duck King Combo's : http://gamefaqs.com/

Crayfish.
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Posted by Middlekick on July 18th, 2001 07:23 PM:

Hey Crayfish, yes I was at casino the night before RB3, Tiger pointed you and your friend out to me. I didn't play st that day, I just watched the challenges and played a3.

Btw. What a strange coincidence, I recently acquired a pad for my comp and I have been playing non-stop fatal fury special!!!(1 player of course)...I used to own the cart years ago, so it's not all new to me. But get this...I've been playing Tung aswell!!! all of what you said is spot on, except, that I like to do:max range low dXX->A senshippo..this seem very safe and could be a solid tactic in versus. I would love to play someone at this game(I didn't have comp back then either)maybe there's a dusty arcade somewhere in London that has it...

Ps. Did you know that Gamest ranked him dead last?

To Josh-ThefunkDOC: The only Duck links I know are: low c(two hits)->slide move, and his low a links into his low d.
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Posted by foreignermiguel on July 18th, 2001 08:58 PM:
Time Killer question

Anyone ever beat the final boss .. Death? Man that is one of the cheapest bosses I have seen in a fighting game... makes Cyber Akuma look easy. Oh yeah, I always wanted to play Bloodstorm any websites where I can get the Bloodstorm rom (the Bloodstorm rom never came to our arcade) and an arcade emulator?
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Posted by foreignermiguel on July 18th, 2001 08:59 PM:

I was talking about the original Time Killers to the post above
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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 19th, 2001 06:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Crayfish

Hey man sorry if I missed your post, I must have passed over it while scimming over Turtle bsed posts. I'll go back and check it out

I think you figured it out by now, but that was a JOKE. The reference to that game did remind me to get my avatar up, though. So, thanks.

quote:
Sorry, I've only played Duck a couple of times. Looks to have good potential though, invunerable Dragon, safe bounceout after Blanka Ball, ST Vega type sweep etc..

Trust me, the Gamest ranking was bs. He is very nice. One thing I'll say right now, his Desperation is nasty (A funny-looking breakdance throw)...if you can do that motion well. God damn old-school SNK.

quote:
The way I play him is totaly dependant on keeping at a medium close range, just outside most normals, he's strong there.
Try to think of the Shou-Ha fireball as just a giant invunerable hit box you can put infront of yuorself on command, kind of like a huge Yoga Flame. It will blast most normals, does excellent chip damage, makes an excellent meaty attack as the hit box hangs around for ages after you have thrown it, you can land opponents on it who jump in at certain ranges and if you trade hits with other fireballs you always come off better because it does almost double the damage (this technique is especially usefull against wayward ex-student Cheng *Look on my avatar to see the tactic in use!).
His crouching Feirce has good priority at full range and can be cancelled into the Shou-Ha.
The crouching Roundhouse has much better range than it seems and can go under many fireballs, this is especially usefull as most characters fireball throwing frames step forward slightly so you whack their feet out from under them for free. This can also be cancelled into the Shou-Ha to form a good push out combo if they block.
The Sen-Shippo lunge punch is like Cammy's cannon Drill in ST, it has a long recovery time. The key is to use it at a range where it only just clips the opponent at the end of its motion, this will bounce you out to safety and score chip damage.
Working at this close range rally pays off when you cand do Tung's Super. Try to tag the Super onto blocked attacks, it does huge chip damage and pushes the opponent right back. When you get this down you can really put the pressure on inclose (this technique is so usefull I often take an extra hit just to get the bar flashing red).
The Gekihou (vertical spirit attack) is usefull with really early anticipation (cause it takes soo long to come out, they should have made this a Flash Kick motion not Hundred Hands ), once it is out though it can stop many attack, especially dash attacks like Duck King's Blanka Ball. It can also avoid most fireballs, the other day Cheng threw one of his arcing fireballs on my head and it fell right through me onto the floor! I'll have to practice with this move more cause I bet you can do some bizzare things with it.
When inclose try to get the RessenKyaku (grab and kick move) off, it seems to have a little bit of suck in range like a SPD, having trouble getting it off on my pads though. If you find out the exact range please post.
His standing double hit Roundhouse can be worked into combos for huge damage, you can cancel the second hit into a special and even the Super!
Finaly remember how small Tung is, very hard to hit.
I don't really know how strong my Tung is cause I don't get any comp on this game , but the character just really appeals to me (I grew up on Shaw Bros kung Fu movies, anyone here seen One Armed Boxer 2 aka Master of the Flying Guillotine. The old master character in that is f**knig mad, also Dhalsim is in that movie!!)
That all I can think of right now, anyother Master Tan Players, please contribute.

Thanks a *ton*. Very interesting character, just might give him a shot.

quote:
The Guard attack is performed by:

Tapping Back then Toward + A just before an attack hits you,
or just
Toward + A if you are already blocking.

It is an invunerable attack (usually a punch) that counters just about anything even Supers! Its like a SF3 parry that hits back! You can even dodge fireballs withj it. Each Guard attack is different, Tungs for instance is a rubber armed anti air but it still beats all groung attacks. I try not to use it cause it basicaly negates most of the strategy in the game, I mean why would you use any other attack?. I can't beleive SNK put in such a depth destroying Super move?!? Must have been the same muppett who thought up the line system (somethingelse I don't use). IMO Take away line system and Guard attack and you have twice the game.

Hot damn...is that in the running now for Cheapest Move Ever?
BTW, Ultima, if you're reading this, Crayfish is right. Without the two things mentioned above, this game is probably the best Hyper Fighting clone out there. Definitely worth a try.

quote:
Cmon people you heard the man! FFSpecial experts we need you.
BTW Josh check out the brilliant FFSpecial combo FAQ by Frank Syma, for Duck King Combo's : http://gamefaqs.com/

Crayfish.

Hm...I forgot about the FAQ, that pretty much covers everything. My only problem is that they should have ticks into his super. Like I said before, that move has a lot of potential if you can get the motion down.

Anyway, I'm done for now, and I'd like to see some more people getting into this too!

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by foreignermiguel on July 19th, 2001 03:10 PM:

Hey crayfish... there used to be a guide that talked about all of the fighting games ever made (last time it was updated was when marvel vs.capcom came out) they used to have it on gamefaqs.. there are some old school games listed there like kabuki klash, last bronx, voltage fighter gowcaizer etc. that could help spark some interest in this thread .. can't seem to find it though will look some more
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Posted by foreignermiguel on July 19th, 2001 03:17 PM:

Sweet ok anyone interested go to http://www.gamefaqs.com/ look under coinup then the misc folder and the ultimate unauthorized fighting game guide is there the author is mthan (guess i was wrong.. it has been updated recently cool)
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Posted by Crayfish on July 20th, 2001 10:36 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Middlekick

Btw. What a strange coincidence, I recently acquired a pad for my comp and I have been playing non-stop fatal fury special!!!(1 player of course)...I used to own the cart years ago, so it's not all new to me. But get this...I've been playing Tung aswell!!!

Bonkers, that is bizzare. I just love the old-school design and atmosphere of the game. Its pretty much new to me, cause I never got to play it in the arcades, so its like having a new, old school fighter come out. How did the home version differ, did it have a proper versus mode where you can choose BG's etc..? What about an option to turn off line system?
Did you ever get to fight Ryo?

quote:
Originally posted by Middlekick

all of what you said is spot on, except, that I like to do:max range low dXX->A senshippo..this seem very safe and could be a solid tactic in versus.

Can you please explain this terminoligy to me, I often see this sort of shorthand posted but I don't know how it works?

quote:
Originally posted by Middlekick

I would love to play someone at this game(I didn't have comp back then either)maybe there's a dusty arcade somewhere in London that has it...

Yeah we'll have to hook up and have some comp on this game, dont know what the chances are of finding it in an arcade but I'm gonna be moving down to London soon anyway. I own a cabinet and I'm in the process of purchasing FFS and a NEo mother board so it will happen. BTW I also play Cheng SinZan (who I'll post some stuff on later) so we could rock some master vs student matchups, who else do you play?

quote:
Originally posted by Middlekick

Ps. Did you know that Gamest ranked him dead last?

Yeah, saw that on the FAQ, man I would love one of those old Gamest's on FFSpecial or the Gamest Mook if there ever was one (anyone know?). Anyway, when you play a character in a relativly unexplored game like this only against the computer you keep finding stuff and thinking wow thats solid, this character is pretty good, but without comp culture its hard to say. I think Tung is good but like I said before I really like the character so I make that extra effort, he is hard work to play compared to many of the other characters. I think Kim is certainly up there on the stregnth of his Feirce and Super alone. I like to play a little Jubei Yamada now and again but I haven't played him seriously yet, it always seems to me that he could be absolutely rank if you could set his style up, I mean Sonic Boom's and that rush in grab using that Vega slide to move forward while charging. Maybe he's just one of those characters who looks good on paper (any thoughts?). I think not using the line system would make him better (as it would alot of the characters) cause you could pin them in the corner and get stuff like : really early meaty cookie into rush in grab. What are your thoughts on the line system for vs play? I think it ruins the game.
Also Gamest rankings, although done by experts, are rushed out to meet the deadline of that months edition so they are always a bit off. I mean look at the Super Turbo rankings. Chun Li #1 ha!
What I want to know is WTF happened to Cheng SinZan (another character who does better without the line system, damn he can put the fibeball presssure on) between FF2 & FFSpecial, he whent from #1 to second from last?!? Any thoughts?

Cheng SinZan strats coming soon, Crayfish.

BTW check this out, a live action FFSpecial advert from 93! features some western martial arts actors I have seen in various cheesy 80's and 90's flicks, Bonkers.

Link: http://www.planetdreamcast.com/orochinagi/2index.shtml

Go to video's page, its near the botttom.
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Posted by Terata on July 20th, 2001 10:36 AM:

quote:

quote:

Interesting fact, Justice League Task Force for SNES was made by Blizzard, of WarCraft, Starcraft, Diablo and Lost Vikings 2 fame.

I guess that's the skeleton in their closet...

Blizzard was formerly known as Silicon and Synapse, and was responsible for some classics under that name. Notably, Rock & Roll Racing and the Capcom-published Blackthorne were both S&S projects.

correction: I'm wrong there, thinking about it Blackthorne was very shortly after the name change and uses the Blizzard logo. Another series I'm wanting to attribute to S&S is The Lost Vikings, can somebody confirm/correct this?

Posted by Crayfish on July 20th, 2001 10:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by foreignermiguel
Sweet ok anyone interested go to http://www.gamefaqs.com/ look under coinup then the misc folder and the ultimate unauthorized fighting game guide is there the author is mthan (guess i was wrong.. it has been updated recently cool)

Hey thanks for that, I found this game on there:

DARK LEGENDS (Data East) 1995 SS
12 playable characters. ST-V.

I had seen pics of this on Data East's home page but didn't know the name cause its all in Japanese. Anyone know anything about this game? I like the look of it alot, I can't remember seeing its name on the STV FAQ though maybe it was on a diffferent system.

Actualy while were on the subject of the STV, anyone play that Golden Axe fighting game? I never got to play it, I saw pics but the graphics didn't look half as good as Golden Axe: The Revenge of Death Adder on Sega's system 32 board (which I personaly rank as the most beautiful graphics ever).

Also while looking through gaming discussion, someone mentioned Global Champion/Kaiser Knuckle by Taito. I can't beleive I fergot about this game, its playable on Mame now. I had been playing it on Raine for ages. Damn that Judo Boss (Gonzales) is ruthless. If you dont already have this romset, get hooked up, this is a top old and obscure fighting game.

Crafish.
__________________
If you only ever download one movie your whole life: This should be it.

Posted by Middlekick on July 20th, 2001 07:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Crayfish

Bonkers, that is bizzare. I just love the old-school design and atmosphere of the game. Its pretty much new to me, cause I never got to play it in the arcades, so its like having a new, old school fighter come out. How did the home version differ, did it have a proper versus mode where you can choose BG's etc..? What about an option to turn off line system?
Did you ever get to fight Ryo?

Yeah, I was a HUGE fan of FFS, infact, I bought my neo on the strength of this game alone. I was very pro-Snk in those days(not anti-Capcom mind you, just overly fond of Snk's stuff) I stalked FFS all over my area till I found it...This was *my* champion edition(FFS) to world warrior(FF2). Looking back now, some of the gameplay elements do seem kinda lame and a bit silly(35% life enables you do a usually riskfree,high damage move forever!!?!?)
The home version had no vs mode, no bg select or any of the stuff that are now commonplace on home fighters...instead, you get to play as Ryo in vs mode(once you've beaten him)and that's it.

quote:

Can you please explain this terminoligy to me, I often see this sort of shorthand posted but I don't know how it works?

Well, I'd check jchensor's X-men vs streetfighter faq for the universal key, but for now:

XX = cancel/two in one/interrupt into
-> = perform in the specified sequence(eg.make them block a power wave->b crackshoot with Terry)

quote:

Yeah we'll have to hook up and have some comp on this game, dont know what the chances are of finding it in an arcade but I'm gonna be moving down to London soon anyway. I own a cabinet and I'm in the process of purchasing FFS and a NEo mother board so it will happen. BTW I also play Cheng SinZan (who I'll post some stuff on later) so we could rock some master vs student matchups, who else do you play?

Cool, we'll do this. Although I hate to be one of people that go "Oh, I play everyone" when asked which characters they play, I actually *do* play everyone but that probably means nothing since I've never had a serious 2 player match in that game

quote:

Yeah, saw that on the FAQ, man I would love one of those old Gamest's on FFSpecial or the Gamest Mook if there ever was one (anyone know?).

Actually, there was a Gamest Mook of FFS(they used to cover nearly all fighting games after all) There's a shop in London that imports mooks, but I'm not sure if you'll be able get them now... Also try Dashtaisen.com

quote:

Anyway, when you play a character in a relativly unexplored game like this only against the computer you keep finding stuff and thinking wow thats solid, this character is pretty good, but without comp culture its hard to say. I think Tung is good but like I said before I really like the character so I make that extra effort, he is hard work to play compared to many of the other characters. I think Kim is certainly up there on the stregnth of his Feirce and Super alone. I like to play a little Jubei Yamada now and again but I haven't played him seriously yet, it always seems to me that he could be absolutely rank if you could set his style up, I mean Sonic Boom's and that rush in grab using that Vega slide to move forward while charging. Maybe he's just one of those characters who looks good on paper (any thoughts?). I think not using the line system would make him better (as it would alot of the characters) cause you could pin them in the corner and get stuff like : really early meaty cookie into rush in grab. What are your thoughts on the line system for vs play? I think it ruins the game.

Yeah, I theorize all the time about strats and stuff in all games, sometimes it works, sometimes it falls flat on its face As for the line system, I have this "theory" that it's possible to get a bit of a lead and run away x n. i.e get ahead, jump to the other line, when they follow, roll to the foreground, when they follow you with an attack, back dash->line switch. if they roll down, you roll up x n.

quote:

Also Gamest rankings, although done by experts, are rushed out to meet the deadline of that months edition so they are always a bit off. I mean look at the Super Turbo rankings. Chun Li #1 ha!
What I want to know is WTF happened to Cheng SinZan (another character who does better without the line system, damn he can put the fibeball presssure on) between FF2 & FFSpecial, he whent from #1 to second from last?!? Any thoughts?

I really don't know what happened to Cheng from FF2 to FFS, but I'll say this: Gamest rankings are the source of much confusion:P

__________________
"SEE WEN I GET IN RANGE RIGHT UR DEAD! NAFFINKKKKK U CAN DO...UR DEAD..DATS IT...ITS AP TA ME IF U SURVIVE OR NOT COS U CAN DO NAFFINKKKKK YASELF!!!!!"

Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 20th, 2001 08:53 PM:

Hehe, I agree with you on Gamest rankings. I also play Geese a bit, though not as much as Duck, and I honestly don't believe he's middle-tier...IF you factor in the line switch. That makes all his projectiles worthless, and his only other moves are the reversals and Raging Storm. Translation: Get a hit on him and STAY THE HELL AWAY. Sure, his standing C and D are nice, but they don't do block damage.

Without the line switch, , though, he could be upper-middle perhaps. You can switch between the two reppukens to mess them up, and the air fireball is not as good as in other games but still useful. Use the single Reppuken to get closer while it's out or be a bitch with all the fireballs to make them come closer. Then poke, especially with the standing C, and reverse their moves. And when your life's low, people ain't gonna jump a whole hell of a lot. Raging Storm is *awesome* anti-air (Major invincibility time). Just have to get the motion down (Notice a trend there? ).

And Crayfish, I never tried Cheng. I'm interested in what you haveta say about him.

Josh the FunkDOC
"All this violence gives me appetite."

__________________
SRK's Defender of the KoF Sports Team

Just call me "Josh"; makes it easier on all of us.

Posted by Crayfish on July 21st, 2001 12:43 PM:

* Updated on 25/07/01
Cheng SinZan.

Cheng is my other main character in FFSpecial. I love the way the designers have worked real TaiChi movements into his arsenal(like his Feirce punch) and come up with a totaly individual and effective style. Obviously being a TaiChi adept, there is heavy emphasis on Chi energy attacks, his Kirai Hoh is one of the most unorthadox and usefull fireballs in the game. Other things of note are his combination charge/motion playing style and acid warped Bruce Lee spirit shouts!

His standing Feirce punch makes a good anti air, it works in a similar way to Honda's Pork Chop Feirce in ST, it hits verticaly above. There is also a close range 45 degree punch, but I prefer the TaiChi palm cause opponents have to be very close for the 45 degree to come out. Its a shame you don't have more control over these attacks like with New Dhalsim in ST.
The C+D (knock into the back line) attack, the one where Cheng gathers Chi around his fist is an excellent anti air for attacks coming in at 45 degrees (this is a weakness of the TaiChi palm), the same attack on the back line isn't as good. *The only thing is if I played with line system banned in versus I supose that means not using this attack, and Cheng loosing his main anti air weapon, could always fight on Billy and Lowrence BG's but that might make the C+D attack more practical than trying more skillfull combos, cant choose BG's anyway. Suspose I can't have my cake and eat it!???! Anyone thoughts?

His standing "Hop Kick" Roundhouse is an excellent footsie weapon when used at full range. Try to hit the tip of low attacks with it. If an opponent tries to trip you with a long range sweep, kick his feet with the Hop Kick. Very effective! This footsie will cleanly beat just about any low attack.
Experiment with this and the standing Short(when you need a quicker attack) against other attacks. They can beat things like Tung's lunge punch, I think even Duck's Ball (Sorry to say this Josh-TheFunkDOC, but I think this and the Roundhouse footsie really tip the scales in Cheng vs Duck matchup, shame you live in the US or you could prove me wrong). Incredible priority. Still experimenting but I think this could be one of the best attacks in the game.

* Against Duck's Ball attack the crouching Roundhouse is best and sets up a good meaty fireball.

At closer ranges on the ground I like his standing Jab, its fast and has good range also you can immediatly cancel into the Hegan Geki (roll attack) for two hits even at full range.

* Crouching Jab has better range, can snuff many attacks and can cancel into Kirai Hoh also. Because its performed croucching you are charged for all other sprecials. You cannot chain low jabs together though.

His jumping Jab has good range and priority for air to air combat.

The Crouching double hit Roundhouse is a good pushout move.
* And can be cancelled into the Kirai Hoh or Super after the first or second hits.

For me Chengs strong suit is the Kirai Hoh fireball. Because of its arcing motion its much more intimidating and harder to aviod than a normal fireball plus it explodes on impact with the ground, this is very usefull. Opponents jumping in at certain angles can be shot down with a well timed Kirai Hoh also remember that if you are ahead on energy you can always trade hits with certain fireballs (like Terry's) cause it flies over the top. The explosion frames have a number of uses, it is great as a meaty attack, allowing you to follow up with an almost instantanious fireball or roll (Im the type of player who will score any chip damage they can get). Opponents can't (so well) do the traditional jump straight up over the Kirai Hoh to negate fireball pressure cause they land on the explosion frames. Opponents jumping in at long range can be landed on the explosion frames as well as opponents who try the quick escape (double tap back) to avoid fireballs. I like to throw a Jab Kirai Hoh short of an opponent when I anticipate some sort of dashing attack from full screen distance, they will dash into the explosion frames.
*Remember the Bakurai Hoh (Super) works just like the Feirce fireball so you can use these tactics with it as well.

* The tactic I mentioned about trading hits with other fireballs cause Cheng's fireball flies over the top (Look at my Avatar) means that when you can do the Super this totaly shuts down many characters long range fireball game! Don't know exactly how this affects all the matchups yet but it must have a huge effect in many, totaly changing the dynamic of the matchup! Remember also Cheng's must be the easiest Super in the game, also it only 'seems' to need the same charge time as the normal fireball 2 secs not 3 as quoted in the FAQ.

The Short Hegan Geki (roll attack) is good for punishing whiffed attacks and covering distance quickly. I also like to whiff the Short Hegan Geki just short of an opponent and then throw them, much like Sagat's whiffed Tiger Knee into throw in ST. The Roundhouse Hegan Geki is too slow and telegraphed to punish anything other than the largest openings.

The throw is great cause you can follow up with a meaty Kirai Hoh and then have options.

The standing Feirce, Roundhouse and short are all usefull for positioning, especialy for setting up meaty fireballs after throws.

The hold and headbutt throw is usefull for putting alot of distance between you and your opponent.

The Fierce Dai-Taikobarauchi (Flying Belly Blast) is great if you anticipate a fireball and can be used as an anti air. The Jab version can be manipulated heavily in flight to confuse your opponent like Bisons flying fist thingie in ST (it certainly confuses CPU AI Billy Cane!). If you hold back with this you will go back down the same as you came up after reaching the height of the jump, so you can bait opponents into whiffing anti airs then punish them with a Short roll. I will have to experiment with this move much more cause I'm sure its got some really good uses. Anyone?

* The great thing about both the roll and the belly blast is that they knock down, this sets up Cheng's meaty game which is very strong thanks to those wonderfull explosion frames.

* Cheng, although he has a fireball motion should always be charging downback unless you need to use a standing attack. That way you can go into Belly Blast and Super at any time.

Thats all I can think of right now, anyone else please add. Overall I think Cheng is a very strong character, although much of his fireball pressure game is negated if you use the line system. He is certainly MY srongest character. Strange that all Master Tan's students use different styles, Tung must be a master of many styles? Apparently in round 4 on Cheng's background, his floating resturant sinks?!?, I have never seen this happen even though I have reached round 4 many times, anyone seen this or any other strange happenings?
Anyone else care to profile a character, please continue. The more I play this game the stronger EVERY character seems. Like Lowrence and Cane with their insane reach etc..
About the "tricky" Supers, its something that I personaly like. It makes mastering each character a much more individual experience. My only real critisism of Super Turbo is that many of the Supers are the same motion and they all feature that same blue tracer effect, this takes away from the individual flavour of the characters. Also the trickiness of the Supers is generaly rewarded by their effectivness, its soo satisfying to counter an opponent with Geese's Lightning Cage Blast.

Crayfish.
__________________
If you only ever download one movie your whole life: This should be it.

Posted by Crayfish on July 21st, 2001 03:49 PM:

I hope my earlier comments havn't scared away the Turtle fans. Please carry on, this is a democratic thread.

Crayfish.
__________________
If you only ever download one movie your whole life: This should be it.

Posted by Crayfish on July 22nd, 2001 01:22 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Middlekick

The home version had no vs mode, no bg select or any of the stuff that are now commonplace on home fighters...instead, you get to play as Ryo in vs mode(once you've beaten him)and that's it.

Can you play as Ryo in the arcade version? I think you can, but obviously you would have to save before fighting him with a memory card. BTW how do you use memory card on MAME? How do you rate Ryo, is he balanced or is he like Akuma in ST? I haven't even seen him yet, but I have always wanted to reach him ever since I saw the pics of him in Gamepro's Fighters edge in 93, I still have the clipping actualy. I'm just starting to learn some of the AI routines, damn Jubei Yamada is ruthless, Cookies like a machine gun and straight into dashing grab! He even had the cheek to start doing jumping Jab into throw. When I fight him with Tung the fight reaches this bizzare stand off, every time he throws a Cookie I do low Roundhouse under it, then Jubei is like "hang on, just thrown Cookie, hasn't hit?!? Better throw another", eventualy he will come in close enough to kick, it just takes him some time to get his head round the gaul of someone who won't eat Cookies every time, lol.

quote:
Originally posted by Middlekick

Cool, we'll do this. Although I hate to be one of people that go "Oh, I play everyone" when asked which characters they play, I actually *do* play everyone but that probably means nothing since I've never had a serious 2 player match in that game

No thats good, I only play 2 charas at the minuite, but I'm sure to end up playing everyone, I do in ST. I am already thinking up questions for you about other charas. Don't be worried about how well your charas hold up in comp, you are the same Middle Kick who is like No1 ranked A3 player in the UK right? I think I'm gonna get my arse kicked. *Begins intensive research and practice with Cheng*

quote:
Originally posted by Middlekick

Actually, there was a Gamest Mook of FFS(they used to cover nearly all fighting games after all) There's a shop in London that imports mooks, but I'm not sure if you'll be able get them now... Also try Dashtaisen.com

If anyone lives in UK and has a copy of the FFSpecial Mook in half decent nick (yeah right), I will give them £50 for it, contact me lets barter. Well I had to ask.
I have already looked right through Dashtaisen.com. Nothing about Mook but there are loads of music CD's. These sometimes have some nice artwork andother stuff in. Might try to get one of these. Actualy I really like some of the music in this game, I love the Tung stage traditional Chinese music, wafting accross his mountain retreat while you fight. Infact this is the only fighting game where I dont switch the sound off and listen to LTJ Bukem on Winamp, must be good.

quote:
Originally posted by Middlekick

As for the line system, I have this "theory" that it's possible to get a bit of a lead and run away x n. i.e get ahead, jump to the other line, when they follow, roll to the foreground, when they follow you with an attack, back dash->line switch. if they roll down, you roll up x n.

Exactly.

Crayfish.
__________________
If you only ever download one movie your whole life: This should be it.

Posted by BonusKun on July 22nd, 2001 12:01 PM:

Wow! An actual discussion about one of the older SNK games I didn't think anyone cared about anymore outside of SNK fan sites. Garou Densetsu Special.

This is pretty much on par for me being a classic fighter. I played enough of this and Fatal Fury 2 to deem that special was a major upgrade of sorts. I also found out doing combos in that game VS FF2 were a lot eaiser. I played a lot of Jubei Yamada and with some MAD charging going on, You can quite literally keep your enemy trapped for days.

One thing about this obscure title was the way it had a LOT of stuff in it. From the new*at the time* hidden SDM's to the background stages with a lot of SNK 'In' jokes hidden all over. The game was something beyond it's time. It could be also be comparaed to the most popular SNK classic Samurai Shodown II which also in it's day boasted many MANY hidden extras for the gamer to find, From Kuroko, Hidden*and sometimes diffucult*SDM's, and even the Doll Moves made this game a hit.

I disgress that the Neo*Geo is still only really a hardcore gamer's system to have. I personally own one myself with a rather fair size collection,*Ask Kamui how big it is if you know him* I still find myself sometimes playing a classic. Overall tho there are a lot of fighters to this day that never got into the limelight of SF but that's how it went. I still play SF a lot but I enjoy playing other games also. Oh and just for a personal note, I'm not some Hardcore SNK Otaku that goes around saying Crapcom this and Crapcom that. I never understood the mutal hate of each company and never will. *shrugs* to each their own. It was always about the games for me....

__________________
Wait until I go into 'Serious' Mode..

Posted by Middlekick on July 22nd, 2001 04:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Crayfish

Can you play as Ryo in the arcade version? I think you can, but obviously you would have to save before fighting him with a memory card. BTW how do you use memory card on MAME? How do you rate Ryo, is he balanced or is he like Akuma in ST? I haven't even seen him yet, but I have always wanted to reach him ever since I saw the pics of him in Gamepro's Fighters edge in 93, I still have the clipping actualy. I'm just starting to learn some of the AI routines, damn Jubei Yamada is ruthless, Cookies like a machine gun and straight into dashing grab! He even had the cheek to start doing jumping Jab into throw. When I fight him with Tung the fight reaches this bizzare stand off, every time he throws a Cookie I do low Roundhouse under it, then Jubei is like "hang on, just thrown Cookie, hasn't hit?!? Better throw another", eventualy he will come in close enough to kick, it just takes him some time to get his head round the gaul of someone who won't eat Cookies every time, lol.

I've never heard of a playable Ryo in the arcade, I don't think you can. I'm using neoragex and although its lets you play the games, that's *all* it does...you can't pause the game afaik,which you need for some games(ffs sound test,ff3 access super duper dms) I didn't know you could use a memory card on MAME. As for Ryo,(I still haven't got him yet on neorage)well..he seemed ok all those years ago, I never got to play anyone with him, the cpu does some good stuff with him, he can do fb->dp traps, and I think his super is unblockable. The way I beat cpu Jubei, is: jump at him with the C button, he'll jump at you, but get hit, keep doing this till he gets dizzy. Another trick is to get him in the corner, line switch, he'll try a jump attack to follow, so just jump into the foreground with your D button to counter as he is travelling. repeat. This also works against Kim.

quote:

No thats good, I only play 2 charas at the minuite, but I'm sure to end up playing everyone, I do in ST. I am already thinking up questions for you about other charas. Don't be worried about how well your charas hold up in comp, you are the same Middle Kick who is like No1 ranked A3 player in the UK right? I think I'm gonna get my arse kicked. *Begins intensive research and practice with Cheng*

Trust me, you have NOTHING to worry about regarding the challenges...as I mentioned in an earlier post, I only just got my pad, so I'm still adjusting to the pad and the game aswell. I can barely complete the game on 1 credit and I have trouble doing certain moves.

quote:

If anyone lives in UK and has a copy of the FFSpecial Mook in half decent nick (yeah right), I will give them £50 for it, contact me lets barter. Well I had to ask.
I have already looked right through Dashtaisen.com. Nothing about Mook but there are loads of music CD's. These sometimes have some nice artwork andother stuff in. Might try to get one of these. Actualy I really like some of the music in this game, I love the Tung stage traditional Chinese music, wafting accross his mountain retreat while you fight. Infact this is the only fighting game where I dont switch the sound off and listen to LTJ Bukem on Winamp, must be good.

I'll be popping down to that store this Tuesday to see what they have. If the mook is there, I'll get it. I also dig the music, my fav tracks are Kim's,Tung's,Jubei's,Axel's,Geese... but the best songs on that are probably Ryo's and Duck's imo.

Btw, I found some news regarding the state of the game in Japan, It seems there is a small but loyal scene on this game. The have regular tournaments and the charcters that place highly seems quite varied. Here are the results of a tourney that happened last Sunday.

Characters only, I can't read Kanji properly to save my life

1.Duck
2.Duck
3.Geese
4.Billy

and a tourney a few months earlier...

1.Geese
2.Duck
3.Kim

On the site with this info, I also found out loads of stuff that I would never have dreamed of. e.g kara cancels with Duck's super, so he can do it without jumping. Mad,mad Jubei cookie combos and other assorted goodies.

Here's the url: http://home.att.ne.jp/sun/garousp-max/garou%20menu.html

and incase you can't find the movies: http://home.att.ne.jp/sun/garousp-max/maxkenkyu-kai.html ...they're all over the page.

__________________
"SEE WEN I GET IN RANGE RIGHT UR DEAD! NAFFINKKKKK U CAN DO...UR DEAD..DATS IT...ITS AP TA ME IF U SURVIVE OR NOT COS U CAN DO NAFFINKKKKK YASELF!!!!!"

Posted by Crayfish on July 22nd, 2001 10:58 PM:
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Middlekick

Btw, I found some news regarding the state of the game in Japan, It seems there is a small but loyal scene on this game. The have regular tournaments and the charcters that place highly seems quite varied. Here are the results of a tourney that happened last Sunday.

Characters only, I can't read Kanji properly to save my life

1.Duck
2.Duck
3.Geese
4.Billy

and a tourney a few months earlier...

1.Geese
2.Duck
3.Kim

On the site with this info, I also found out loads of stuff that I would never have dreamed of. e.g kara cancels with Duck's super, so he can do it without jumping. Mad,mad Jubei cookie combos and other assorted goodies.

WOW!!!
I can't beleive this. I had thought to myself "what if the was a little ghettoised band of hardcore FFSpecial fans somewhere?". Never did I even think that this was possible, I always underestimated the quality of the game, cause my main fascination was always mainly to do with the design.
I really can't get my head round this, I was even surprised to get a responce about gameplay on this thresd let alone this?!? I'm so chuffed that this is obviously a great game worth investing time in.

Man I wish I could read Japanese, I would love to find out about the scene and its history. Middlekick please post ANY other info you can decode from this site. You can read a little Japanese? How did you pick that up. Maybe someone in the scene speaks english?

Movies, movies, movies. The things shown on these movies suggest that this is a ST like game. I mean like heavily mind game based. What other use would some of the Billy canceling his polevault into other moves be other than to psyche out? It all means this must be a really good game. Well a devoted scene for 8 years says that. All the stuff is really advanced obscure stuff.
I would give anything to see some competetive matches. I wonder if there are any Tung or Cheng players?
Do you think the page is updated very much? I have quickly got all 33(I think thats all of them) vids. Damn I wish I knew about this site in 97 when I first got my PC. You know FFSpecial is one of the first things I looked up, my total lack of findings left me to think it wasn't that good a game. Man I bet I have missed some great stuff posted on here. I wish I could read Japanese!

The thing is, this has brought up the rules question again.
What rules do you think they play under if any?
If they play no rules (full line system & Guard attack) then they're not the game breaking features we thought they were, cause they wouldn't still be playing the game. I mean Guard Attack footsies would become booring in about 2 secs right.
If some of this footage was of competetive matches it would end all this speculation.

Middlekick we,ve got to get something sorted with this. Its going to be months before I move down to London. What, in your opinion are the chances of finding this in an arcade? What about anyone else who might be interested in playing? *The only thing I'm worried about is getting abused for being oldschool even by the ST old men, lol.

quote:
Originally posted by Middlekick

I'll be popping down to that store this Tuesday to see what they have. If the mook is there, I'll get it. I also dig the music, my fav tracks are Kim's,Tung's,Jubei's,Axel's,Geese... but the best songs on that are probably Ryo's and Duck's imo.

I,m coming down to Goodge this Saturday 28th, to play ST. Are you going to be there Middlekick?

BTW in all this excitement, have you had chance to have a look at my Cheng SinZan guide and test some of it out? What do you think?
Oh and just to throw a link back (though nothing to yours ), the Japanese flyer is now available: http://www.arcadeflyers.com/index.php?page=flyerdb&subpage=thumbs&id=2025
_______________________________________________

To BonusKun, post some stuff about FFSpecial, anything. Sounds like you were a mean J.Yamada player. Please fill us in, any vs experience.
_______________________________________________

To Josh-TheFunkDOC, you must be chuffed to see that Duck seems to be the character of choice at the moment for the Jap Special masters. Still think Cheng has him number though.

Crayfish.
__________________
If you only ever download one movie your whole life: This should be it.

Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 22nd, 2001 11:42 PM:

Bonus, I agree on the Neo being a hardcore gamer's system. I'm very interested in buying an MVS cabinet, and am trying to save whatever little money I get towards one. BTW, did you come up with the phrase "the wall of SNK otaku"?

I also think you should post some of your Jubei strategies! Nobody else around here appears to play him, but as Crayfish noted earlier, on paper he looks like a monster.

About that tourney stuff...HOT DAMN~! Duck and Geese, the only two guys I play in this, tourney winners? That deserves a rating of 5 's. I haven't even gone to the site yet, am going to right after this!

Josh the FunkDOC

__________________
SRK's Defender of the KoF Sports Team

Just call me "Josh"; makes it easier on all of us.

Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 23rd, 2001 12:30 AM:

F'n awesome site. Crayfish, we need to get this info out somewhere. All I can think of at the moment is posting the link to the site at the neo-geo.com boards.

I just have a few questions: Is the guy using a kara-cancel to do all that stuff with Duck's air throw? I paused the videos and advanced them slowly, seeing no sign of any other move being done. Does that move just have ridiculous priority?

And the video of Krauser reversing Mai's DM: Was it a kara-cancel, and if so, what is the point of doing this?

And finally: Did Mai kara-cancel her cD, U+P into the air throw to counter Bear's dropkick there?

Josh the FunkDOC

__________________
SRK's Defender of the KoF Sports Team

Just call me "Josh"; makes it easier on all of us.

Posted by Crayfish on July 23rd, 2001 01:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC
F'n awesome site. Crayfish, we need to get this info out somewhere. All I can think of at the moment is posting the link to the site at the neo-geo.com boards.

Yeah, I'm all for promoting FFSpecial but I don,t really know much about boards etc. SRK is the first and only I have used. I think BonusKun is pretty important at neo-geo.com. BonusKun?
The main thing is to try to get FFSpecial fans together, Im planning on doing a site, but thats a little way away. Please anyone got suggestions, I'm the worst person to ask.

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC
I just have a few questions: Is the guy using a kara-cancel to do all that stuff with Duck's air throw? I paused the videos and advanced them slowly, seeing no sign of any other move being done. Does that move just have ridiculous priority?
[/B]

Sorry I'm so oldschool I don't even know what the term means, although I have heard it thrown about during SF3 discussion.

That vid where Cheng knocks Joe's flying kick out of the air with his Guard Attack then hits him with the Super as he lands, I wonder if that actualy combos? Would be usefull for chip damage anyway (How the hell did they cancel that anyway???). Some of the stuff on these vids has confused me, in one it just seems to be Geese hiting Krouser at full screen range with his fireball, what am I looking at?

Crayfish
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Posted by Orochi Setzuna on July 23rd, 2001 01:24 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by hyt
Gundam Wing: Endless Duel for the Super Famicom was absolutely the best fighting game for that system. Kick ass graphics, and many characters, although Epyon was a cheapass bastard.

Hell Yeah! To bad I can only play it on the emulator....Motions on a keyboard are tough!!
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Posted by Orochi Setzuna on July 23rd, 2001 01:29 AM:

Damn all these old schoolers. Actually It would be very interesting to try out these games. Josh Da Funky, next time I come over(if I ever get ungrounded) you should show me this shit.
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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 23rd, 2001 02:01 AM:

SetSuna (You should learn how to spell ): I need to buy the Turtles fighter if I can find it cheap. It's really simple, but I *will* cheese you out with Chrome Dome. He is Dhalsim combined with SF2 Zangief's inescapable piledriver ticks. Fatal Fury Special is really hard to play on a keyboard, though. Gawd, I need a Neo cabinet...

Crayfish: OK, I shall illuminate you on the Kara-Cancel(Warning, kinda long. Ask Setzuna, I love to rant about this stuff ):

It's simple. In all Capcom 2D fighters, the first few frames of any normal move can be cancelled into a special or super. In SF3: 3rd Strike, throws are done with a Jab+Short motion. So, you can do this cancel with throws in this game. What makes it good is that every character has at least one normal that moves you forward in those few frames, therefore extending the range of the throw.

This is also applicable in Alpha 3, as kara-cacelling anything into Zangief's SPD noticeably increases its range. It's very important to using him in high-level play.

To see a good example of this in FFS, look at the video of Big Bear doing his powerbomb without jumping. If you pause the video and advance it *very* carefully, you will see the start of his standing C. He does the standing C near the end of the motion and goes right into the move. This is what Middlekick meant by "kara-cancelling" Duck's super to keep him from jumping. You can clearly see this in the one vid where he does a low A, then a whiff low D into super. That particular tick looks *vicious*, BTW.

So there ya have it. AFAIK, FFS having kara-cancelable specials (Billy's pole vault) is unique.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 24th, 2001 12:09 AM:

*bump*
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Posted by Crayfish on July 24th, 2001 12:47 AM:

I wonder why Cheng was kara canceling his standing Feirce into Super with Geese in the corner?

See I've got the hang of this now, .

Crayfish.
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Posted by Crayfish on July 24th, 2001 03:01 PM:

Just to add a little to my Cheng SinZan profile. After experimenting more with the standing Roundhouse "hop kick" it seems more and more like DJ's crouching Strong in ST. Its strange, it can snuff alot of moves (even high ones) without even seeming to make contact. Ofcourse proper vs play is essential to test out its true uses but it seems really good.

With regards to getting Ryo up in the arcade version of the game I found this quote in the FFSpecial FAQ:

"The above procedure is for the home game, is selection of Ryo
possible in the arcade version? (someone posted a long time back of
walking into HK arcades and everybody using him.)"

I would have thought that SNK would have made it possible. I mean this would have been the first proper reason to use their home/arcade memory card system, right?. I'm gonna try to scout some SNK experts from other threads to come in and contribute, anyone have any recomendations.
BTW you can use memory cards in Mame, I think you press TAB key then go to memory card, during play. Mame doesn't emulate the home version now, only MVS. It used to emulate both.

Anyone notice one of those strange background effects on those Japanese vids? Watch the Jubei cookie combo vid on Billys level. Its round 4 and there is laundry hanging on the line! Washing laundry is (according to the profile) Billys hobby. So he has an effemenite hobby and the profile also refers to him as a (and I quote) "Vengeful Pole Pounder"! Seems the days of ambiguously camp SNK characters started way before KOF.

Crayfish.
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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 24th, 2001 03:56 PM:

You forgot the best thing about Billy: His quote when he's challenging Duck. "Eat my power pole, pansy. A nice treat after a long separation." Even still, NO fighter is as much of a flamer as Benimaru.

Anyway, I still don't get the use for some of these kara-cancels (i.e. The Krauser reversal one). And I would love to know how to do that Power Geyser glitch!

Say, with Billy, would it be possible to do Stand C -> Pole Vault -> Stand C -> Pole Vault -> etc. until C doesn't hit anymore?

Edit: Didn't see that Billy's C knocks them away. Would another fierce attack be possible?

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 24th, 2001 04:07 PM:

Oh yes, now I do see the purpose of kara-cancelling Cheng's standing C into the DM: You can see quite a bit of the C's startup animation, so depending on the other player's tendencies you can bait him into eating a DM.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Just call me "Josh"; makes it easier on all of us.

Posted by Crayfish on July 24th, 2001 04:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC
"Eat my power pole, pansy. A nice treat after a long separation."

Ahem. I wonder what the background to that is, anyone?

Hey Josh do me a favour, you post regular in Gaming Discussion don't you? I've posted a help request there for FFSpecial info and to read some of the Japanese on that MAX site. While your there just give it a bump if it gets a few pages back. Nice one. Do you know Neo Rasa, apparently he's the no1 SNK expert here?

Crayfish.
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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 24th, 2001 04:17 PM:

I don't post much in Gaming Discussion. Almost all my time on these forums is spent here. But yeah, I will do what you ask. And I know Neo Rasa a bit, he and BonusKun are the SNK experts around here.

Edit no. 1: You've noticed how that MAX site has this little page entirely about Geese? I'm interested in seeing what some of that's about.

Edit: no. 2: Your sig kicks ass.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Just call me "Josh"; makes it easier on all of us.

Posted by Crayfish on July 24th, 2001 04:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC
I don't post much in Gaming Discussion. Almost all my time on these forums is spent here. But yeah, I will do what you ask. And I know Neo Rasa a bit, he and BonusKun are the SNK experts around here.

Hey don't worry, I was just asking if you were there alot. I can easily bump when I'm on. Shame BonusKun hasn't been back lately.

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC
Edit no. 1: You've noticed how that MAX site has this little page entirely about Geese? I'm interested in seeing what some of that's about.
[/B]

Yeah some of it looks like how to cancel into his DM. Really tricky timing, like standing Flashkick sort of stuff. I bet Geese is really fun when you master him, those reversal moves. Like you said about the Cheng kara cancel, your right. Maybe he was trying to bait Geese into doing his reversal move then make him eat DM, ha.
Josh you should give us a breakdown on Geese, I would play him given info. The main thing is the reversal throws (name?) and how to use them, there are 2 right? I like standing Short into Repuken inclose, that standing short is really good at full range. Whats the point of the Double Repuken? Shame you can't air fireball from the quick retreat (double tap back), that would be good. I loved some of his tactics on those vids, doing the reversal throw during the getup frames to stop Lawrence Deathsword chip damage and grabbing Billys sky dive. Plus when you can get that DM down, opponents will have to be really savy about attacking.
Maybe the dedicated page is rotated every so often, like a different profile each month or something? I hope so. Can't wait to see the Cheng page.

Crayfish.
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Posted by kalok on July 25th, 2001 02:13 AM:

oh rise

Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 25th, 2001 04:35 AM:

i am ohio geese master! he own terry andy joe bear and jubei for free!! he also beat duck cause if duck try attack then reversal. if duck try for SUPER grabby, jump away!!! if he jump, then SUPER dead duck. u englands have no good geese.

...

...

...

Seriously, Geese in this game is definitely an expert character. I was just trying out some more things with him, and it turns out I suck with him even more than I thought. Or maybe it's just the CPU. Geese has to be like the worst character to use on the CPU because they're psychic when it comes to his reversals. You CANNOT catch CPU characters with them . Soooo...then you go to his fireballs. And the CPU loves to abuse the line switch to avoid these.

So I was pretty much left with just his normals. And he has some darned good stuff. The standing B into Reppuken is a very good tactic, but from a distance I find myself using sweep into Reppuken more often. The sweep in general is a very nice move aside from its slow startup.

In the air, even though when you press C he does like 5 of those palmstrikes, I still find both his jumping weak attacks better. Jumping B is, as you've seen in the video, his crossup move. But most of the time I use jumping A. Seems to have the same priority as B (Really good), but it's at a downward angle. When I land I follow up with a blocked move into Reppuken. It seems to me that the close standing C into Reppuken only combos when they're in the corner.

Low C: His only anti-air besides the high reversal (More on that later) and Raging Storm (ditto). Hits twice if close. Another good move to cancel into Reppuken, as the startup time is good. Priority ain't bad; it trades with Duck's jumping B.

*Also, the CPU Geese, when it's on the opposite line, loves to jump to your line and low C after. If all 3 hits connect, that's a 40% damage combo.

Far away standing C: VERY important move. Actually, I can't call it "far away", as you have to be almost on top of your opponent to hit his close version. Anyway, this move has kinda shitty startup time, but it beats EVERYTHING that isn't completely invincible (i.e. Most anti-air specials at startup). It hits Duck out of his ball easily, and beats any normal move I can think of (Except Guard Attacks, of course. ). Just don't use it too close to the enemy, or they can react more easily.

Far away standing D: For me, his BEST normal move. It's like having a dash that hits them. Only prob with this move is that if you do it too close to the enemy, the recovery time if blocked is bad. That's only of you're very close, though. If you're mid-range, it won't be a problem. Anyway, this move actually has fast startup, and travels quickly and far. After I hit one of these, I do blocked move into Reppuken, then do another standing D and repeat for a little while. This is a better tactic than you'd think, as the priority of this move is very good. Hell, I once hit Andy out of his DP during its upwards arc with this.

Double Reppuken: This move has turned out to be more useless than I thought. Just note that its startup is a lot slower than the A Reppuken, but the fireball is larger and travels more quickly. In future games, it's a better move up close because it hits twice.

Reppuken: As I've said by now, I never use the Reppuken other than cancelling normals into it. It becomes a whole different ballgame when you play versus with a fellow line-switch hater.

Shippuken (Air fireball): With line switch this move is utter tripe. Without the line switch, the A version is very useful. I don't like the C version because it travels more quickly and leaves him floating backwards in the air longer (Translation: More time for your opponent to do something to you). Even the A version has a nice long recovery. For that reason, never use this if you're in the corner.

Reversals (Don't know their names): Geese can never seem to decide whether he wants to have 2 or 3 reversals, as that number varies between games. In this particular incarnation, he has 2. These are the high reversal and the mid reversal.

The high one reverses all jumping attacks, and all specials and DM's besides fireballs and throws.
The mid one reverses all standing normals, including CD attacks. I'm not so sure about Guard Attacks, but I would think it would work on them.
*And, it does reverse crouching attacks that hit high.

BTW, in the games when he has 3 reversals, the third one reverses all crouching attacks.

And finally...

Raging Storm: I can do this move very consistently on a keyboard after some practice. In fact, I can cancel the first hit of low C into it. The wierd thing was that it didn't connect afterwards, and I was doing this on *Cheng*. I think it can only combo after a crossup, and maybe only on crouching characters or something. Anyway, this is the move I was the most disappointed in after trying it more. Weakness #1 being that its horizontal range is almost nonexistant. And the other, more significant weakness being...you can get hit during its startup (Which is a pretty large timeframe). Seriously. Even as anti-air, you'd have to do it early because of the lack of invincibility. I would love to see what makes this such an outstanding move, because right now I'm not convinced it's anything more than a poor man's Power Geyser.

That has been all of what I have found about Geese so far. How I long for some versus play. *sigh*

Josh the FunkDOC

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Just call me "Josh"; makes it easier on all of us.

Posted by Ultima on July 25th, 2001 05:46 AM:

Damn, those FFS movies rock. Jubei's the link master of death! Kara-cancels! I'm definitely going to have to check this game out (but first, I need to get a new gamepad; my old one's left is shot )

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Posted by Cablescrub on July 25th, 2001 07:18 AM:

does anyone remember how to do dm's in ffs. they were near impossible for me.
__________________
I am a scrub cause I like to win.

Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 25th, 2001 07:36 AM:

Ah ha, Ultima, glad to see that you're interested in this game.
Say, if you do find a gamepad that's not too sucky, I'd like to know what it is. If I could get a good one, then I'd be willing to have some "TURTLE COMBAT!" with ya.

Jubei...I'd still be interested in seeing BonusKun post some of his Jubei stuff here. Nobody else here plays the guy, but we're all interested because on paper he looks like a monster. Besides the Sonic Cookies, he has a total of FOUR command throws (3 of his special moves and his DM). And one of those specials is a running grab that works *very* nicely with the cookies.

Well, if you're interested in learning some things, Crayfish posted up very nice explanations of how he plays Tung and Cheng, and I just above posted what I've learned with Geese in my experience against the CPU. And seeing as how I'm the only Duck player around here, tomorrow I'll play around with him a bit more and post some basics with him. God DAMN I need to learn to pull off that DM on a keyboard...*insert the evil devil smiley here*

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 25th, 2001 07:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cablescrub
does anyone remember how to do dm's in ffs. they were near impossible for me.

Go to gamefaqs.com and look up the motions for them. A lot of them are a bitch to do, though. It's all about practice.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Just call me "Josh"; makes it easier on all of us.

Posted by Crayfish on July 25th, 2001 11:43 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC

Or maybe it's just the CPU. Geese has to be like the worst character to use on the CPU because they're psychic when it comes to his reversals.

Hey Josh don't get downhearted, stick with Geese. You can't judge anthing from playing the CPU. For starters oldschool games like this that don't have air blocks or reversals are all about mind games and psyche outs, immediately this is void against a cpu. Secondly like you said Geese is the worst type of character to play against cpu cause most of his game is based on these psychological factors.

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC

Double Reppuken: This move has turned out to be more useless than I thought. Just note that its startup is a lot slower than the A Reppuken, but the fireball is larger and travels more quickly. In future games, it's a better move up close because it hits twice.

If you do this just before a fireball hits will the first part nulify it then the Reppuken comes out with the second part? Thats the only use I can think of. Its to slow to be used psyche games, like make the opponent think your throwing a normal Reppuken so they jump to avoid it but cause you throw the double their timing is wrong and they land on it? Wouldn't matter with line system anyway??

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC

Reppuken: As I've said by now, I never use the Reppuken other than cancelling normals into it. It becomes a whole different ballgame when you play versus with a fellow line-switch hater.

Yeah thats one of the best fireballs.

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC

The high one reverses all jumping attacks, and all specials and DM's besides fireballs and throws.
The mid one reverses all standing normals, including CD attacks. I'm not so sure about Guard Attacks, but I would think it would work on them. And, it does not reverse any crouching attacks, even ones that can be blocked high.

Thanks thats what I needed to know. The low attack issue isn't so bad cause this game was ahead of its time in footsie priority, I mean the standing attacks are really good and get used alot, not like the concurrent SF2 versions where sweeps ruled (this was fixed alot in ST though), have you tried standing Short against those low attacks, maybe it can snuff some of them?
One thing, can it reversal Jubei's rush in grab? *Those Aikido guys always have trouble with proper wrestling attacks.

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC

Anyway, this is the move I was the most disappointed in after trying it more. Weakness #1 being that its horizontal range is almost nonexistant. And the other, more significant weakness being...you can get hit during its startup (Which is a pretty large timeframe).

Yeah one of those vids shows it getting hit by Kim's SDM, shame. I was hoping you could get it down, then use it to hit poking limbs, like a Dragon Punch. With good early anticipation though its still good, against rushes and jumps, luckily in this game everyone jumps like Dhalsim, really slow, really high so plenty of time for the Lightning Cage Blast.

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC

That has been all of what I have found about Geese so far. How I long for some versus play. *sigh*

Have you concidered online play? Killera(spelling) is the online version of Mame. I live in UK with crappy 56k modems but as we get more and more FFSpecial fans together I bet you'll find some comp over broadband (Obviously broadband is essential for these type of games). If you try it let me know how you get on, you could advretice for opponents on the thread.
BTW how the f**k do you play on a keyboard?!? I have a microsoft sidewinder 10 button( the older normal port, round pad ones that you can link together for multiplayer), they are very stiff at first but once you break them in they'r really good. I have removed one of the screws on the pad side also, just to loosten up slightly. The best thing is the button layout, I rock a staggered layout. I've got it so you can easily press B&C (for Supers) with vertical thumb and C&D (for power attack, essential for Cheng air defence) with angled thumb while still keeping a proper SF style layout. Here it is (0 represents unused buttons):

A C 0
0 B D

Also you can use the shoulder buttons (snes style) if your that way inclined.

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC

One more issue before I go: There is one problem with banning the line switch...you cannot jump over Krauser's Kaiser Wave. I know some characters would have other ways around it besides blocking, but from what I see most of the cast couldn't do anything about it. Now, if you have Krauser against a guy whose stage has stuff in the background...Billy can pole vault over it, but Axel and Laurence from what I see can do nothing about this. What would your solution be? Ban the Kaiser Wave on those stages or against characters who are helpless against it?

The thing is from the very start once you start bringing in rules you going to find more and more grey areas (like Cheng anti air for instance). You know "hey I'm not alowed to do my SDM so neither can you" and so on. My opinion is to wait to find out what rules if any the Japanese scene from MAX use, if they have been playing (and obviously enjoying) for 8 years, their rules must be the best. This is another reason I wan't to get more info from that site, I feel like I'm in limbo with this game. Once I know their rules I will know where I stand and can settle down to some good practice and look forward to clean cut challanges. Japanese speakers?
If they do have rules, I bet they go pretty deep cause of things like this, I bet there are some specific character matchup issues we hadn't thought of yet, all of which makes me think more and more they play NHB. Maybe some of our thoughts on how playing no rules affects certain characters is wrong anyway, hear me out. Geese has possibly the best Guard Attack in the game, most GA's are short little counter moves but Geese's is so good you can practicaly poke with it. Now this means utilizing his awsome GA you could easily get an early lead, the opponent is then forced to come to you, then its Geese's game, right?

We need those damn rules, to end this speculation.
Crayfish.
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Posted by kalok on July 25th, 2001 01:47 PM:

wht u guys talkin about?

Posted by Crayfish on July 25th, 2001 01:54 PM:

Fatal Fury Special.NEO-GEO. SNK 1993.
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Posted by Draven_TKD on July 25th, 2001 02:04 PM:

I have that on Neo Rage
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Posted by Crayfish on July 25th, 2001 02:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Draven_TKD
I have that on Neo Rage

There you go, perfect oportunity to start learning this game contributing. Hope to hear from you soon.

I have updated my Cheng guide with a few important points, marked *

Crayfish.
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Posted by Draven_TKD on July 25th, 2001 02:29 PM:

I know basic info about it, I'm not a master at it or anything like I am in 3rd Strike....Not yet anyway.

My 100th post break out the 40's!!
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Posted by Middlekick on July 25th, 2001 09:00 PM:

Crayfish: I went to that store and unfortunately, they didn't have the mook..infact, this store used to have like a whole shelf filled with gamest mooks, now this shelf is completely empty

Regarding the "Max" site, I really can't shed anymore light pertaining to the site, its history or even "Max" However, I did find a new page(not that useful to me, but still). It's the site of a top Big Bear player..."Dirty Bear" the URL is: http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Bingo/2308/

We *really* need someone who speaks and reads Japanese *properly* to help us out. There MUST be someone on this site that can help...someone should post in general discussion to ask for help...
Or the peep on the madman's cafe bbs could help...they're all neo freaks over there.

I'm going to try emailing some people to see if that brings anything.

As for finding the game in London, our only chance is the Trocadero, the last time I was there(about 3 years ago!) I think I remember seeing it...I'll check tommorow anyway.
Btw. I *should* be in Casino on that Saturday before Rb, which incidentally, are you going to this? Or Maybe we can play online on neorage?

Ps. Nice Cheng faq btw. "I think I'm gonna get my arse kicked" yeah right.

Josh the FunkDOC: Regarding the kaiser wave, Axel can tornado upper if he knows it's coming to nullify it or like Lawrence, he can simply use his guard attack to make the wave pass him unscathed. I think Lawrence(with a little anticipation) can use his dive thingy to sail over the wave and hit Wolfgang.

Btw, did you say that you can do the raging storm on keyboard? or better yet, combo into it? OMG!!! you are the man, I've done it exactly once(probably due to a lack of trying but still) on a pad that I've had for like, 2 weeks, kudos to you

I think I'll learn to play Duck now
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Posted by Crayfish on July 25th, 2001 11:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Middlekick
Crayfish: I went to that store and unfortunately, they didn't have the mook..infact, this store used to have like a whole shelf filled with gamest mooks, now this shelf is completely empty

I didn't get my hopes up anyway, the only way I think we'll find out about the Mook is through our MAX freinds.

quote:
Originally posted by Middlekick
Regarding the "Max" site, I really can't shed anymore light pertaining to the site, its history or even "Max" However, I did find a new page(not that useful to me, but still). It's the site of a top Big Bear player..."Dirty Bear" the URL is: http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Bingo/2308/
[/B]

What a stange site, front page features a manga girl in a bikini with some sort of skin condition!?! Anyway searching round I found this page on there:
http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Bingo/2308/bea-hissatu.htm
It got all different ways of doing Bears throws etc.. some with diagrams. Also I was looking on the links for names I recognised from the MAX tournament reports and I found this Billy page:
http://super-blaze.com/
It has a whole section on FFSpecial, thing is even the japanese text wont come up on this page even though I have it installed?

quote:
Originally posted by Middlekick
We *really* need someone who speaks and reads Japanese *properly* to help us out. There MUST be someone on this site that can help...someone should post in general discussion to ask for help...
Or the peep on the madman's cafe bbs could help...they're all neo freaks over there.
[/B]

I have posted a help request in Gaming Disc, but the only responses so far are people calling me a racist cause I abreviated Japanese to Jap in the title. Whoops, didn't realise this was an issue. Anyway its still there, give it a bump if your in there.
There is enough English on those sites to make me beleive that some of them have a basic grasp. Maybe we could mail them, they must have English text installed cause there is some on their pages. Would this work? Many Japanese read English, its the main foreign language taught in schools.
I'm sure there are loads of people who can help, plus SNK fans tend to be really fanatical, so should be willing to help, just a matter of finding them.

quote:
Originally posted by Middlekick
As for finding the game in London, our only chance is the Trocadero, the last time I was there(about 3 years ago!) I think I remember seeing it...I'll check tommorow anyway.
Btw. I *should* be in Casino on that Saturday before Rb, which incidentally, are you going to this? Or Maybe we can play online on neorage?
[/B]

Sorry I'm not going to Rb, I,m a true oldschooler I only play ST and a couple of other old games (including this one). I have only been playing SF again for about 6 months. Thats when I found out people still play ST. I left the scene when Alpha came out, but now I'm like re-living my childhood. Now I've found out about FFSpecial MAX scene and its like being 14 again, bonkers.
Online play, I rock Mame myself, its loads better than Neorage, you should get hooked up. kaillera is the online version.

Go here: http://www.arcadeathome.com/gate.phtml?http://kaillera.com

I'm well up for it but I have heard playing fighting games is tough on normal modems cause of their split second nature. Have you tried it before? Get back to me cause I'm well up for play if its workable. As connections get better and better things will be brilliant for people like us, we could rock regular matches anytime. My Cheng vs your Tung vs Josh's Duck vs BonusKun's Jubei, hey 4 people thats enough for our first online tournament.

Crayfish.

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If you only ever download one movie your whole life: This should be it.

Posted by JumpsuitJesse on July 26th, 2001 12:39 AM:

The only real old obscure fighting games I remember playing were:

Double Dragon(VS Mode)NES
River City Ransom(Beat up everyone then fight eachother)
Flying Warriors(by Culture Brain)
Flying Dragon(Culture Brain)
Karate Kid(VS Mode! All about Chozen!)
Kage-Ki(Bad ass japanese boxing game on rooftops!)
Ring King

That's about it

JumpsuitJesse
"Nonsense, Poopie Pants!"
Ace Ventura
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Posted by Crayfish on July 26th, 2001 01:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JumpsuitJesse
The only real old obscure fighting games I remember playing were:

Double Dragon(VS Mode)NES
River City Ransom(Beat up everyone then fight eachother)
Flying Warriors(by Culture Brain)
Flying Dragon(Culture Brain)
Karate Kid(VS Mode! All about Chozen!)
Kage-Ki(Bad ass japanese boxing game on rooftops!)
Ring King

Bonkers, hadn't heard of any of these.

Double Dragon(VS Mode)NES
Never owned a Nes but I remember fighting each other at the end of the arcade. It was an Elbow fest, lol. BTW anyone remember fighting your ghotstly clones at the end of the sequel?

River City Ransom(Beat up everyone then fight eachother)
Don't know it??

Flying Warriors(by Culture Brain)
Flying Dragon(Culture Brain)
Culture Brain made that scrolling\vs combination game Goldenfighter on the Snes right?

Karate Kid(VS Mode! All about Chozen!)
There was a Karate Kid game?!? I hope the Kobra Kai were represented in the lineup.

Kage-Ki(Bad ass japanese boxing game on rooftops!)
Sounds excellent, tell me more.

Ring King
No don't know this either.
Wow some vs Fighters I have never even heard of, amazing. Any Mutant Fighter players? Cmon Mutant Fighter\Death Brade, you know "Feel the authority of my horn"! No seriously. Data East 91 wrestling game come vs fighter featuring mythical characters like Minotaur, Werewolf and Gholem, had Death matches even before World Heroes and some very strange voices. Even though this game was crap it had a real charm to it. I'd love to find someone else who likes it.

Crayfish.
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If you only ever download one movie your whole life: This should be it.

Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 26th, 2001 04:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Crayfish
River City Ransom(Beat up everyone then fight eachother)
Don't know it??

WHAT?!? YOU CLAIM TO BE A SCHOLAR OF BEAT-EM-UPS AND HAVE NEVER HEARD OF RIVER CITY RANSOM?!?!?!?!?

...

...

Oh wait, in Europe it was called "Street Gangs" for some nonsensical reason. And you never owned a NES, so naturally you wouldn't know.

Well, this is the game that even people who hate beat-em-ups love, and among hardcore NES fans it is considered one of the system's all-time greats. It has great gameplay, variety in weapons, variety of special attacks via items you can buy, fun team moves in 2-player mode, lots of RPG elements, and a real charm to the whole thing. If you've ever played a Super Dodge Ball game or Crash N' The Boys Street Challenge, this game has the same style of character design.

Simply put, get this game on your emulator RIGHT EFFIN' NOW.

quote:

Karate Kid(VS Mode! All about Chozen!)
There was a Karate Kid game?!? I hope the Kobra Kai were represented in the lineup.

There was indeed a Karate Kid game, but I think it sucked. It did have some nice variety, I will say that much.

quote:

Ring King
No don't know this either.

It's some boxing game, and from what I've played of it, it sucks.

quote:

Wow some vs Fighters I have never even heard of, amazing. Any Mutant Fighter players? Cmon Mutant Fighter\Death Brade, you know "Feel the authority of my horn"! No seriously. Data East 91 wrestling game come vs fighter featuring mythical characters like Minotaur, Werewolf and Gholem, had Death matches even before World Heroes and some very strange voices. Even though this game was crap it had a real charm to it. I'd love to find someone else who likes it.

I would love to try this, is it on MAME?

Josh the FunkDOC

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Just call me "Josh"; makes it easier on all of us.

Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 26th, 2001 04:20 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Crayfish
I'm well up for it but I have heard playing fighting games is tough on normal modems cause of their split second nature. Have you tried it before? Get back to me cause I'm well up for play if its workable. As connections get better and better things will be brilliant for people like us, we could rock regular matches anytime. My Cheng vs your Tung vs Josh's Duck vs BonusKun's Jubei, hey 4 people thats enough for our first online tournament.

Crayfish.

Aww, you include me with you guys? Anyway, I'm not sure about FFSpecial because that game's small by figher standards. I sure as hell know stuff like KoF '98 and Marvel games won't work if one person has a slower connection.

However, until I find a good pad I wouldn't want to try online gaming. The one time I did was Children of the Atom, and my Colossus, Omega Red, and Sentinel all got killed by my opponent's Wolverine. Didn't get a single win on him in like 15 matches.

Anyway, I'd *love* an online tourney of some sort provided I can solve said problem above. Connection-wise, I myself happen to have a fast cable modem.

Sidenote: I've been trying Axel out a bit, just because nobody seems to care about him. I think I might have somebody to add to Duck and Geese now.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Just call me "Josh"; makes it easier on all of us.

Posted by kalok on July 26th, 2001 06:56 AM:

u guys say wht?

Posted by BonusKun on July 26th, 2001 02:58 PM:

Wow this thread is still going strong!!
After I had read this thread I decided to fire up the ole Neo*Geo and slap in the cart. I decided to pick Andy due to me remembering how fast he was. I made it most of the way with no problem unitl I ran into Geese who I had honestly forgotten loves to plane jump like a wussalope.

I then fell back to Jubei Yamada and started working my way down with him. He's just too damn easy to beat this game with. If he had a Flash Kick he'd be guile's father. Nobody in this game can charge like this old man can.

Jumped on down and decided to play some of the legendary breasts of Mai herself. She's a strong fighter imho but takes a bit getting used to from her later KoF games in which she appeared.I still think the RBS version of Mai was the best

I wasn't sure about Chang. I never worked on him much outside of the Real Bout games so I never gave his earlier forms much play. Someone had described him as the Blanka of the game. *heh*

Duck King......I swear by today's standards he looks like a Saturday Night Fever Reject but damn he was actually an awesome fighter. Playing him made the game easy also and of course once again in RB2 his combos were off the wall. Hail to the Duck

Damn this thread for making me play an old game again. I even dug out the original OST to Fatal Fury Special I had buried away and started listening to that again.*Hearing Tung Fu Rue's BG stage at this moment* Oh yah, Tung was also pimp-o-licious.

BonusKun

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Posted by Crayfish on July 26th, 2001 03:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC

Aww, you include me with you guys? Anyway, I'm not sure about FFSpecial because that game's small by figher standards. I sure as hell know stuff like KoF '98 and Marvel games won't work if one person has a slower connection.

Don't know if the size makes any difference. I thought its only the joypad imputs getting sent back and forth isn't it?

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC

Anyway, I'd *love* an online tourney of some sort provided I can solve said problem above. Connection-wise, I myself happen to have a fast cable modem.

Ohhhh, cable, if only. Anyway if its playable this end (doubt it) maybe your cable modem will bridge the great distance gap??

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC

Sidenote: I've been trying Axel out a bit, just because nobody seems to care about him. I think I might have somebody to add to Duck and Geese now.

Hey I'm interested in Axel, good Jab (something thats usually crap with Western Boxing characters in other games?!?), shame he doesn't have good foot speed with it. Roundhouse I think is good high level 45 degree anti air. Axel Dance (Hundred Hand) is great for chip damage, try meaty Tornado into Axel dance. I like standing Feirce at full range in footsies, seems to have good priority. Crouching Feirce is like Guile's, vertical anti air, but MASSIVE. Seems to have really fast fireball recovery, would probably make a good fireball trap character? Can you charge the Smash Bomber in time to FB trap? You could probably use his normals anyway if you worked the range well.
Whats his Super like, any invunerability, I find the Smash Bomber too telegraphed to use for anything other than high early anti air and I think the Super is the same. "Bust you up"!
Do you play the 'punch' Butterbean or 'kick' George Forman comeback incarnation? Yes I'm a Boxing fan. Another thing I find slightly disturbing about Axel is his uncanny resembelance to a bouncer who once beat me up!

BTW Mutant Fighter isn't emulated yet(probably why I remember it so fondly). In my arcade players used to use toothbrushes and bottle rims for those button bashing wrestling games, very effective (arcade operator wasn't impressed though). King of the monsters 2 was a double toothbrush challange affair, that Godzilla character had a jumping attack like a blanka ball that was unstopable. I do have a near perfect X6800 version of Mutant Fighter on an emu though (I really don't like computer emulators especially ones in Japanese).
The flyer is here: http://www.arcadeflyers.com/index.php?page=flyerdb&subpage=thumbs&id=1850

Actualy while I mention it the X6800 is one incredible system. For the old men here this would have been THE system to own back in the day. It was a Japanese home computer from late 80's / early 90's but it blew away anything available in the west. It had perfect conversions of games like Final Fight and I mean perfect. No mean feat for a home system then, as CPS1 was cutting edje sprite moving kit, later it had SSF2. Just to move away from fighters for a second the X6800 also had (for those who are interested) probably the best versions of classic Konami series Castlevania (besides CV4 snes) and Nemesis, really hardcore versions. X6800Castlevania and Nemesis90 are possibly two of the most challenging games ever. I bet there are loads of exclusive fighting games on this as the home programing scene (like the concurrent Amiga scene in UK) was. There are loads of never before seen in the west games on this plus many bizzare jap hentai things (I even have a game called "Prostitute Maker" which I think must be some sort of pimp sim,lol), and it must be the best kept secret in emulation. Get hooked up here:

http://www.jcec.co.uk/

Crayfish.

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Posted by Crayfish on July 26th, 2001 03:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BonusKun

I then fell back to Jubei Yamada and started working my way down with him. He's just too damn easy to beat this game with. If he had a Flash Kick he'd be guile's father. Nobody in this game can charge like this old man can.

Cmon were all baying for you to break him down for us.
I
quote:
Originally posted by BonusKun
wasn't sure about Chang. I never worked on him much outside of the Real Bout games so I never gave his earlier forms much play. Someone had described him as the Blanka of the game. *heh*

Yeah Blanka with a fireball!

quote:
Originally posted by BonusKun

Duck King......I swear by today's standards he looks like a Saturday Night Fever Reject but damn he was actually an awesome fighter.

I don't know, the baggy B boy look is pretty timeless and his boots even look like those chunky DC's that are now coming accross!

quote:
Originally posted by BonusKun

Damn this thread for making me play an old game again. I even dug out the original OST to Fatal Fury Special I had buried away and started listening to that again.*Hearing Tung Fu Rue's BG stage at this moment* Oh yah, Tung was also pimp-o-licious.

Yeah we all love Tung music, this and FF1.

Crayfish.
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If you only ever download one movie your whole life: This should be it.

Posted by Muskau on July 26th, 2001 04:42 PM:

Hmmm, old Fighting games....
What's my old favourites?
(These are probably the european names)

Fighters:
Yie Ar Kung Fu (Really hard kung-fu game, at least it was hard when I was 12)
Barbarian (Game where to sword-wielding barbarians hack at each other)
International Karate+ : Successor to Karate Champ

Beat 'em Ups:
Final Fight (Grab the giant Pipe! )
Dragon Ninja (Two bad-ass guys just beat the crap out of bad-guys)
Shadow Warriors (Ninja beat em up, cool acrobatic moves)

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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 26th, 2001 05:27 PM:

I haven't played anything on the X68000 besides Castlevania, which is right up there with the NES CV3 as being my favorite in the series. I love the redone version of the original CV's level 5.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Just call me "Josh"; makes it easier on all of us.

Posted by Devil Lee on July 27th, 2001 04:41 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC

Um...if you guys can ever find a good PC gamepad, please tell me. I've bought like 3 and they've all sucked. Well, the last one I got would've been good, were it not for the fact that you couldn't configure the buttons. So, there was no Start or Select button (those were for adjusting speed or something) or L and R buttons (Those were for rapid-fire). Seriously, the keyboard was better than any of them.

Go out there and buy the Microsoft Sidewinder gamepad. It's absolutely fantastic. Plugs into your gameport, then look it up in Control Panel. My advice is to stay away from USB gamepads, since most DOS emulators can't pick up on USB. The Sidewinder gamepad has a start button, 6 button layout ala Sega Genesis, 2 trigger buttons(adds the SNES feel), another button on the front, and a mode button(I don't know what it does, it seems to shut it off). The D-pad is way contoured though, and it makes it hard to do some motions, like Raging Storm. Other than that little flaw, it is the best buy out there. I bought mine used at the Salvation Army for about 3 bucks.

Edit: I was in Japan for 6 weeks and I went to some arcades. Lots of SNK machines and some VF3, TTT, CvS, etc. I saw this one guy( this is on FFS ) own the computer with Geese, beat Ryo pretty good as well. I couldn't even get past the first stage. I have this game on NeoRage so I will try it out and see if I can learn some stuff. Where were those FFS videos again?
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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 27th, 2001 05:04 AM:

Thanks for the recommendation. Maybe I'm being naive in thinking I can find one with a Nintendo-style D-Pad. Ah well.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Just call me "Josh"; makes it easier on all of us.

Posted by Crayfish on July 27th, 2001 03:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Devil Lee

Go out there and buy the Microsoft Sidewinder gamepad. It's absolutely fantastic.

Yeah I've got one too. Look at my first post on this page (to Middlekick) for my tips on breaking in and button layout.

quote:
Originally posted by Devil Lee

Edit: I was in Japan for 6 weeks and I went to some arcades. Lots of SNK machines and some VF3, TTT, CvS, etc. I saw this one guy( this is on FFS ) own the computer with Geese, beat Ryo pretty good as well.

Please tell us any details you can remember about FFS play in Japan, any strats that bloke used? Did you see any versus play, were they using Guard Attacks and the Line System.

quote:
Originally posted by Devil Lee

I have this game on NeoRage so I will try it out and see if I can learn some stuff. Where were those FFS videos again?

You will find the links on Middlekicks post on page 4. To learn stuff about this game read page 3 onwards there is loads of stuff. You will also find JoshFunk's Geese guide and my guides for Tung and Cheng. Hope you find it usefull and post anything you know about the game, character guide, strats, tacts misc info...

Crayfish.
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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 27th, 2001 09:59 PM:

I really don't think my Geese stuff could be considered a "guide". I really underestimated the low C; when my guys fight CPU Geese and jump, he always does this and it stops everything. Only really high-priority jumpins like Duck's B can trade with it.

And would anybody interested for me to post basic stuff with Duck and Axel?

Josh the FunkDOC

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Just call me "Josh"; makes it easier on all of us.

Posted by Crayfish on July 27th, 2001 11:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC

And would anybody interested for me to post basic stuff with Duck and Axel?

Yep.

Just a couple of things about Axel, if he's played NHB I think he's better. His Guard Attack must be the best in the game for reach, his C+D power attack is good anti air.

Crayfish.
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Posted by Crayfish on July 29th, 2001 09:46 PM:

Hey Middlekick shame we didn't get to hook up Saturday, Chunkis told me about the Web cafe idea, I only have a standard gameport pad tho. Don't stress, sure we'll get to play sooner or later.

Crayfish.
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Posted by Terata on July 30th, 2001 09:59 AM:

Has anybody here mentioned Fighting Masters for the Genesis? Was by Treco I think, 1v1 fighter with various aliens duking it out. Everything from mobile plants to lizard guys to snakes. Kind of cool characterwise, but really marginal as a game. Even so, I kinda liked it.

I have a six-button arcade stick for the PC... bet you didn't even think those existed. =P

Posted by BonusKun on July 30th, 2001 11:26 AM:

Hm To coin a phrase, Skill is in the eye of the beholder.

I played a lot of Fatal Fury Special these past few days and came across a lot of weird and interesting things with Jubei. I find that using him for cross ups and then doing crouching 'B' or 'A' and following up with either a Senbei-Shuriken or Nihon-Seoi Dash makes it very easy for a lot of other player to get caught in trap. The Senbei-Shuriken I would recommend doing instead of the Nihon-Seoi Dash seeing as you can keep adding more hits even after you throw the *heh* Cookie.

Plane shifting wise I would do low hops and follow up with the same things overall due to him being able to combo his low 'B' into a lot of things. The Neko-Jarashi *HCB+C up close* is a cool command throw for just doing a fair amount of damage. It's like a Zangief's piledriver but it's esier to get results with it.

The Ooizuna-Otoshi I only really use for stunned oppoents due to it being a charge down/up move which needs to be done very close. I find that Jubei's abilites make him an excellent turtle fighter but he CAN be offensive if you desire to go that route. A varity of jumping D's can be used to do similar combos overall and just make anyone facing Jubie have a bad day.

I don't know if Jubei is really considered top tier but, I think he is up there. The game is just too damn easy to win with using him. I think I'll see what else I can do with him seeing as I think he might have some other things I haven't tried yet. Either way, I hope what i said is worth the read. I don't consider myself an awesome player but, I stil love this game enough to play it.
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Posted by Crayfish on July 30th, 2001 11:43 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Terata
Has anybody here mentioned Fighting Masters for the Genesis? Was by Treco I think, 1v1 fighter with various aliens duking it out. Everything from mobile plants to lizard guys to snakes. Kind of cool characterwise, but really marginal as a game. Even so, I kinda liked it.

I have a six-button arcade stick for the PC... bet you didn't even think those existed. =P

Yeah fergot about that. My mate got this cheap Japanese import when he first got his Megadrive. Had a real charm to it even though it had about 0 depth. There were 2 moves a normal hit and a jumping hit. When you landed a blow the opponent was stunned and you could walk in and do one of the 1-3 wrestling attacks that the characters had. The only gamplay feature of note was the ability to use the floor and walls as weapons, you could bounce them off the walls and slam them onto the floor. If you used some of the slams at the right range you could score about 10 hits against the wall. The strongest character from what I found was the woman with knight sticks, if you tapped her jump attack botton quikly she would skip along the floor and hit the opponent low, this was nearly impossible to stop as there is no block!

The character designs however are wonderfull. Faves of mine include:
Fat blue alien with big hands like a clown and a body a bit like a jellyfish. Had a good spinning jump attack.
Dio the plant, he runs around on his roots and even uses them as weapons! Capcom did a copy character in theit last ever scrolling beatemup, the CPS3 sequel to Captain Commando (name ??). Good crouching root attack.
The beetle character, his wings folded out when he jumped. Good high jump.
Drason the Dragon. Had a flame attack that knocked down, also one of those slams that gets multi contacts with the wall.
The Indian Elephant God, attacked with his trunk!
A Blue Demon wearing boxing gloves, another goodd hop attack.
The male human fighter has huge feet!
Goldrock the lump of rock with gold in!

Crayfish.

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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 31st, 2001 12:34 AM:

OK...I've been playing all Axel lately, and here are various tips for anybody interested in him.

Anti-Air:

Axel has 5 moves that are viable anti-airs: His far B, far D, low C, CD attack, and his DM.

Far D: Only use this when the enemy jumps from a far distance and the damage from it will kill them. Priority is decent.

Low C: This works only if the enemy's right next to you because its horizontal range is zilch. Kinda sad, as the priority is excellent.

CD Attack: The best if they're close. I prefer far B if they jump from a distance (explained below). Except on the Billy/Axel/Laurence stages, on which this should be your one and only anti-air.

Far B: This is my favorite because its priority is awesome and you can cancel it into a tornado upper. They'll land right on it and be forced to block or line switch. Note that the hitbox of this move isn't as high as the others, so don't use it too early.

Desperation Move: As the startup on this is horrible, only use if you can psychically predict when your enemy will jump. If you actually do get it out, then it's great, as no normal will beat it.

Special and Desperation Moves:

Tornado Upper: His main special move, without a doubt. Its startup and recovery are very good for a projectile, almost as good as Krauser's Blitz Balls. I mainly cancel into it after certain normal moves (see normal moves and general strategy sections in part 2).

Dash Uppercut (Don't know the exact name): Its startup is *very* slow, but the recovery is good. Good move to use after a low D. Low D -> Dash Upper is a good tactic for getting close (see strategies section in part 2).

Axel Dance: This move is key to playing Axel up close. Mash the low A, and one of them will get canceled into this for nice block damage. AFAIK, this is his only special move that combos (Not sure about the dash upper). Make sure NOT TO MASH ANYMORE after the move starts, as he'll throw more punches that'll completely whiff. As you can imagine, that is a Bad Thing, and he looks like a doofus too.

"BUST YEW UP!" (Once again, can't remember exact name): His Desperation Move. I've heard this mentioned as one of the hardest moves to do in the game, but I don't agree. For me it's slightly easier than a Raging Storm. This is a move that, unlike the Dash Upper, I can hardly find any good uses at all. Its startup is even worse than the dash upper, and there is no invincibility at any point in it. If any of it hits, the enemy is knocked down and loses about 1/3 of his life. If blocked, it will do 2 hits of block damage, *no more*. This is a Very Bad Thing because usually the last punch will not connect at all if the move is blocked, giving your enemy a year to figure out what to do to you.

Guard Attack:

Axel's Guard Attack is one of the best in the game, without a doubt. The reason is because its range is incredible; it's his longest-ranged physical attack.

Jumping Attacks:

A and B: Both are exactly the same. I prefer C and D over these usually. I do use these to counter certain attacks (Duck's ball or Krauser's Leg Tomahawk) because they stay out longer.

C and D: All his jumping attacks have the same animation and priority. Only difference is that these don't stay out as long as A/B, but they do more damage, cause longer hit stun(Duh ), and hit twice. The latter three reasons are why I use these.

One final note: All his jumping attacks can cross up.

And I have to go for a bit, so that'll be it for now. The normal moves and general strategy sections will be in my next post.

To BonusKun: I read all of your info on Jubei and liked it. Glad to see somebody who still loves this game.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Just call me "Josh"; makes it easier on all of us.

Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 31st, 2001 12:41 AM:

Oh, and my Geese "guide" was updated with a correction on the mid reversal, and a useful easy combo that the CPU Geese loves doing to me. New info has an asterisk by it.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Just call me "Josh"; makes it easier on all of us.

Posted by Dilated Hadashi on July 31st, 2001 02:54 AM:

some great games with fighting memories:

blades of steel:
come on, you played this game for fights, just admit it

river city ransom:
noted all ready and easily one of the best NES games ever

kart fighter:
some hack of an nes cart that had mario character fighting...great stuff, graphic top-notch and amazing play-able for the nes

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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 31st, 2001 05:33 AM:

Now back to where I left off with Axel.

Ground Normal Moves:

A: The far standing A is his fastest and longest-ranged (I think)standing normal and is cancelable.
The low A is my favorite move to use when up close. It's his fastest normal, period. It's always a good idea to cancel this into a tornado upper or Axel Dance.

B: The far B is one of my favorite moves with Axel. It has good range, comes out almost instantly, hits crouchers, is cancelable, and beats out almost any physical attack I can think of. Its flaw is the recovery; even if you connect with this, most characters can sweep you or do worse while you're recovering. The way around this is to cancel it into a tornado upper.
The low B has good startup and recovery , is his longest-ranged low move along with the D, and is cancelable. However, I almost always prefer the low D over this (see below).

C: The far C is a good move to poke with, as its range is better than the far D's. Recovery is kinda harsh, so it's best to use at its maximum range.
The close C is a quick move that hits crouchers and is cancelable. Not bad at all.
The crouching C is only good for anti-air. Its hitbox is a bit high; most characters can duck under it. No horizontal range.

D: The far D isn't necessarily bad, but there's little reason to use it over the C for ground fighting.
The close D is even quicker than the C and is cancelable. I should use this move more often.
The low D has the same animation and priority as the low B. It has only *slightly* more startup and recovery than the B, which is why I prefer it. It tends to hit moves at a bit farther range than it looks. It is cancelable; good to use the dash upper after this as well as the tornado.

Combos:

Axel only has one combo that I ever use. Hell, come to think of it, I think this is the only combo he has :P :

Jump C/D, low A -> A Axel Dance

The Dance will get 2 hits if you jump from the front, or 3 hits if the combo is a crossup.

General Strategies:

Generally, I like to play Axel at mid-range. All his far normals except the low A and C have great reach; use it. Stand B into tornado upper is one of my favorite tactics; just don't use too much against guys with invincible-at-startup DP's (i.e. The 3 heroes, Kim, Duck) or other fireball-punishers (Cheng's belly flop). Against those characters, I favor the sweep into tornado as it pushes them farther back if blocked. Don't keep using standing B against other characters though; be patient and poke with his other normals, especially the low B/D (Against Krauser and Geese, put heavy emphasis on the un-reversable low attacks). As I've told you by now, he is really lacking in speed, but makes up for it in range and priority.
Playing Axel at full-screen ain't bad either. Like I said, his projectile is one of the best. If they jump, CD their ass, or do far B and cancel into tornado to continue this. Don't get too predictable with that, though, as if they jump early enough they can still get you.
Against some characters like Jubei, I like to switch between mid-screen and rushdown Axel. The latter involves using jumping attacks or low D -> A Dash Upper to get close and from there pressuring with constant low A's into Axel Dance. That's pretty damned fun right there.

And that's it. Comments, anyone?

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on July 31st, 2001 05:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dilated Hadashi
some great games with fighting memories:

blades of steel:
come on, you played this game for fights, just admit it

river city ransom:
noted all ready and easily one of the best NES games ever

kart fighter:
some hack of an nes cart that had mario character fighting...great stuff, graphic top-notch and amazing play-able for the nes

I never played Blades of Steel, actually. Not into hockey. Sounds fun though.

I already mentioned RCR and yes that is one of the best NES games ever.

Kart Fighter...? I'm not sure if hacks and pirated stuff would count in this, but it does seem interesting.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by Crayfish on July 31st, 2001 03:36 PM:

Terrific guide JoshFunk, I need a little time to have a good go with all this. Using his abilities to stay at his strong range is one of those things like Tung where you really need to get into his style. Great work, once I get my next night off work I'll post some new stuff.

BTW you should get in contact with BonusKun and try to sort out some online challanges, you both live in US so it should be workable. He is quite active at Neo-Geo.com I think.

Crayfish.
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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on August 1st, 2001 09:27 PM:

Just bumping this up, and I'll also mention that Axel can be a complete bastard if he gets them in the corner. Just use your usual mid-range tactics...poke, and cancel stuff into tornado uppers. And his other specials are good here too.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by Middlekick on August 2nd, 2001 10:48 PM:

I should have probably posted this ages ago...
The japanese infinite combo site(the one that has the sticky in the strategy and tactics section) has two infinites for fatal fury special.

Joe Higashi or Duck King vs anyone in the corner.
[close standing A->walk forward a tiny bit->close standing A] x n

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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on August 3rd, 2001 01:00 AM:

Hm, never went to that site. Major thanks.

BonusKun, check your PM's.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by Dilated Hadashi on August 3rd, 2001 02:05 AM:

just had a major flashback:

anyone remember last battle for the genesis?

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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on August 3rd, 2001 04:54 AM:

Never heard of it. I'd like to hear a bit more about this.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by Terata on August 3rd, 2001 07:08 AM:

quote:
just had a major flashback:

anyone remember last battle for the genesis?

One of the very first few Genesis games -- and pretty awful by my estimation, though I know a few people who dug it. It was renamed during translation, the japanese version was called Fist of the North Star.

Posted by DJTakashi on August 3rd, 2001 08:09 AM:

Karate Champ!!! Bruce Lee for the Atari 2600!!! Ye Air Kung Fu!!!
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Posted by CHAZumaru on August 3rd, 2001 06:10 PM:

HERE I AM CRAYFISH !!!!!
Of course I know Sango Fighter !

Posted by Crayfish on August 3rd, 2001 06:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by CHAZumaru
HERE I AM CRAYFISH !!!!!
Of course I know Sango Fighter !

HOT, break it down for me. Also that Rabbit game sound bonkers. Any info, strats, links etc..
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Posted by CHAZumaru on August 3rd, 2001 06:20 PM:

you want obscure ?

body blows
Gokehtsuji
Rabbit
Hiryu no ken S Golden fighter
Strip fighter II
ninku
waku waku 7
galaxy fight
astra supertars
pretty fighter X
advanced V.G.
pit fighter
karnov's revenge
typing fighter II
rise of the robots

...I have more.

Posted by Crayfish on August 3rd, 2001 06:25 PM:

I see by Body Blows you are familular with Amiga. Ever play Fighting Spirit? Its a late 90's Amiga vs fighter that looks just like a 93 era SNK release. I have only seen pics,

Fighters History and Karnov Revenge were broken down really well (teirs etc) by Spider Dan earlier in the thread.

Crayfish.
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Posted by CHAZumaru on August 3rd, 2001 06:25 PM:

huh ?
"Break it down" ?
Rabbit is no bonkers since I own it.
The tag reference is T-10610G.
(BTW I'm looking for Real Bout Best Collection 's Tag reference.)

Bonkers ? Hahaha I will do the faq after the holidays plus after request I'll try to make a vid this weekend

bonkers

Posted by CHAZumaru on August 3rd, 2001 06:27 PM:

oh sorry spider dan but I couldn't take the time to read ALL the previous posts.

Posted by Crayfish on August 3rd, 2001 06:30 PM:

In the mean time do you have any links to info about Rabbit or Sango Fighter. Are they downloadable?
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Posted by CHAZumaru on August 3rd, 2001 06:36 PM:

nope. never looked, but try on Altavista, you might find some info.

Posted by CHAZumaru on August 3rd, 2001 06:39 PM:

here's a link to Amiga games.
Fighting spirit is there.

thanks who ?

Posted by CHAZumaru on August 3rd, 2001 07:48 PM:

*phoenix down*

(thanks bizounce for the idea)

Posted by CHAZumaru on August 4th, 2001 05:04 AM:

*phoenix down* again
Crayfish you filthy bstrd where are you

Posted by Crayfish on August 4th, 2001 12:12 PM:

Here are a bunch of links to PC based fighting games that I have been trying to find for ages.

Sango Fighter 2: set in the same era and same graphical style as Capcom's Warriors of Fate. Brilliant site this, all about the game.

http://www.carnasaur.com/Sango/index.shtml
---------------------------------------------------
Database of Fighting Games! Terrific site covering loads of oldschool PC fighting games.

http://dfg.theunderdogs.org/
-----------------------------------------------------
Super Fighter: Site made by Death Adder who runs the previous site, he has even made a Win9X/2K version of this game for down load.

http://dfg.theunderdogs.org/sfsite/english/index.html
------------------------------------------------------
Underdogs: Site where you can download many of these games including Sango Fighter 2.

http://www.theunderdogs.org/
----------------------------------------------------

Crayfish.

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Posted by Crayfish on August 4th, 2001 12:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by CHAZumaru
*phoenix down* again
Crayfish you filthy bstrd where are you

Whats all this Phoenix down business?
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If you only ever download one movie your whole life: This should be it.

Posted by CHAZumaru on August 4th, 2001 01:02 PM:

I got it from Bizounce.

I quote:
"I'm using a Phoenix down to keep the site alive"
I thought the idea was pretty cool so I used it to maintain the thread in 1st page once in a while.

Posted by CHAZumaru on August 4th, 2001 01:16 PM:

why did you quote yourself ?
BTW I won't be able to make a video of Rabbit before late august (sorry guys) and the Aorn websit is 404 now.
Anyway here's the only thing I found about it on the net:

yes! it does exist !

Posted by Crayfish on August 4th, 2001 01:21 PM:

When are you going to share some of your knowlege with us on aformentioned games. I'm downloading Sango Fighter 2 at this very moment any tips. Thanks for the Fighting Spirit link, I can't figure out how to work these bloody Amiga emus. I've got the kick roms but I dont know how to load the game?

Crayfish.
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Posted by CHAZumaru on August 4th, 2001 01:24 PM:

hmm?
I'd share anything you wan't.
What game should we talk about ?

Posted by Crayfish on August 7th, 2001 11:07 PM:

Sorry to JoshFunk and everyone, I've been slack on this thread for a while. I have been working a lot of hours this week. I should be breaking down a new FFSpecial character in the next couple of days.

Chazumaru- post anything you want about any of the games sited here, its all welcome.

Crayfish.
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Posted by Crayfish on August 8th, 2001 03:30 PM:

JOE HIGASHI.

After the soft internal Tai Chi style of Cheng I fancied a change. What better than the most rugged external style of all, Muay Thai. Joe is a really solid FB trap and anti air character.

FIREBALL.
The Hurricane is a very fast FB with excellent recovery and means he can go head to head with just about anyone in FB wars. As with most jab projectiles in this game, the Jab version is very slow and is really good for meaty and follow up tactics.
Because the Hurricane is a full character height characters like Tung and Jubei can't sweep underneath it to negate fireball pressure and the quick recovery sets up Joe's FB trap and anti air game (which is incredibly strong.

ANTI AIR. FB TRAPPING.
This to me is Joe's strongest area, he has multiple options in just about all AA situations. *If an opponent is able to close in when you are trying to zone him remember to make liberal use of the Quick Retreat (double tap back) to regain the range.

The standing Roundhouse is is a good weapon. Although it looks like a pure 45 degree AA, it has infact got a huge striking area. its horizontal range is huge meaning it can cope with jumping attacks coming in from between 60 and 30 degrees. The recovery is so quick and you stay planted to the ground so you can really get good patterns going with just this and the Hurricane! Terrific move.

The Tiger Kick is almost unstoppable AA. Its startup is very slow but is almost completely invunerable and stays that way until it has reached the peak of its motion. The only downside is its limited range and slow recovery, meaning you will often land close to an opponent after countering with this with almost no time to plan you next move, so the standing Roundhoue is better for zoning opponents.

Opponents jumping in out of range can be landed on the crouching Roundhouse, ST Dhalsim style.

At a medium range the Guard Attack provides good AA (as the CPU demonstrates).

With good anticipation, opponents jumping in at high angles can be shot down by the Screw Upper (Super). The start up time is slow but the good thing is, once it has started to come out it will come out all the way even if Joe is hit, so unless you are one hit from death you can trade hits with any air attack and come off better. * The Screw Upper starts to come out about 3 frames into the move so you still need fairly good anticipation even to trade.

In some situations (like an opponent jumping at full screen range or jumping backwards) the Slash Kick can be used to knock them out of the air. This is a surprisingly good tactic.

MISC.
To me Joe (without the GA) should only be played at distance or right in close because he lacks good medium range footsie or poke attacks.(Where is the Thai low Round Kick?!?)

When fighting in close I like the crouching Jab. Its fast, will snuff many attacks and can be chained into other c.Jabs or the crouching Roundhouse. The standing Jab is just as good but can be ducked under especially by short characters. I find multipe jabs chained together is often better than the TNT punch because they don't push you out and will always combo.

The horizontal range of the far standing Roundhouse as mentioned above is big. You can even beat some low attacks (like Terry's crouching Roundhouse) with certain timings. Experiment with the strange hitting properties of this move.
The close s.Roundhouse is a knee attack that can be handy for a close attack because it hits low, unlike the close standing Feirce or Jab.

The Tiger Kick can dig under (Dragon Punch style) most normal attacks that opponents stick out to poke. This is an excellent tactic that sort of makes up for Joe's weak med range and footsie game, but make sure you timing is good cause the whiff recovery is awfull.

When jumping at an opponent the Rounhouse has excellent reach and is very similar to Sagats mirror move in ST. Very intimidating when used at full range. It is also an excellent cross up weapon.

The jump straight up Short is good when used at full range for dropping on opponents heads when they are getting up, again this is a very intimidating move because of its range and tricky striking angle.

The Screw Upper as mentioned above can trade hit well with a little anticipation. This is also true against dashing attacks. Remember this attack is a screen height, character thick collision box that takes half a bar you can put infront of yourself on commad, thats one hell of a weapon. Experiment with it.

The Slash Kick is a good surprise attack. Like Tung's Lunge Punch use it at a range where it will bounce you out to safety unless you are confident of a clean hit. I have yet to really make the most of this attack because of my style of play, if anyone has anything to contribute please do.

The crouching Roundhouse is usefull for sliding under certain FB's (like Mai's Fan etc..). Use this move sparingly in close because all characters can snuff it before it gets going and its recovery is also slow meaning many characters can punish you if it is blocked even at full range.

I love to use this chip damage combo:
When you have knocked an opponent down in a corner throw an early Screw Upper then hammer Punch. The last frames of the Screw Upper should hit the back of the opponent just as they get up, then you will chip them with another two hits of TNT punch before being pushed out to safety.

I have not found any real uses for the TNT punch outside of the above mentioned chip combo. I have never landed that impressive looking last punch. Anyone any suggestions.

Well thats all I can think of for now. I am going to be breaking down Lowrence Blood in the next few days so stay tuned.
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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on August 11th, 2001 12:27 AM:

Crayfish, that is some very nice info there. I'm thinking about trying Kim or Terry out.

Josh the FunkDOC
Needs keyboard-friendly characters; otherwise, would play Billy or Raiden.
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Posted by Middlekick on August 11th, 2001 03:17 AM:

Crayfish, seeing as you're quite a big Tung fan, the Max site has a new movie. I think you'll like it

http://home.att.ne.jp/sun/garousp-max/mpg/max-41.mpg choose "save target as..."

btw. watch the energy

btw. Terry has some sick,sick,sick combos. If you can start the combo with their back towards you, you can do something like: Jump d->low a x 7->low cXXb crackshoot.

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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on August 11th, 2001 11:46 PM:

How do you get the enemy to have their back to you without a crossup?

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by Crayfish on August 12th, 2001 12:41 AM:

Wow that movie is the nuts, I knew that move had some amazing attributes. The computer has hit me multi hits with it when but I thought it would be too hard to get because its a button mashing move, but it was obvious, do it when your getting up! FFSpecial gives you a massive window to perform a Special as your getting up, and so it should, the meaty attacks in this game especialy the FB's are sick.
Middlekick, keep us upto date, I would hate to miss anything, was that the only new movie? I'm now gonna check but I might miss.
BTW are you going to be in Goodge the Sat before the next A3 RB, the 25th I think it is?

Yeah JoshFunk, I was wondering that as well?

The Lowrence breakdown is coming soon.
Crayfish.
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Posted by Orochi Kyosuke on August 12th, 2001 01:08 AM:

At an arcade where I live, they just got this game called Martial Masters. Well it appears to be an SNK game, but there is no sign of the logo, but it is in a NeoGeo cabinet. Our problem is that we cant find any info on this game, we're looking for movelists. We've searched everywhere and its like the game doesn't exist. I'm almost sure that it is brand new in Japan and it is imported. So does anyone know if there is a diffenent name for it or something? Or do you know exactly who made it? Its really fun, its 2-D, mad combo/juggle system, cool characters(its got a drunken master,), and you get to pick 3 characters(KOF elimination style), but you can pick three of the same characters. So if ANYONE knows what game I'm talking about, help me. Thanks.

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Posted by Mr. Big on August 12th, 2001 01:33 AM:

::Thinks that Orochi Kyosuke is imagining things::
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Posted by DjStorm on August 12th, 2001 03:28 AM:

Orochi Kyosuke: Try making a thread about this game and describe some of the characters and game system maybe someelse has played it too.. Also check GameFaqs for a Move List..

Peace
Storm
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Posted by Middlekick on August 12th, 2001 05:16 AM:

Oh man, Duck King, I'm starting to see why he's so good...
His normals are awesome.
stand c-wicked poke..it has loads of priority,moves him forward,has good recovery which can be abused eg. stand c->stand c->stand c then if they try to counter, you can go into his duck dive combo(low a->low bXXduck dive(more later)

Stand a-the comboers weapon of choice. He can also do a rolento/gen style walking poking sequence. The close a hits ducking(ha!)opponents too.

slide-anti fb. I bet you could also do stuff like max range slide into his super grab as a good baiting tactic.

anti-air comes in the form his b break storm(d works also but the startup time is bit too much for my liking), low d(spin kick) slide, or jump straight up d.

His roll is safe, it's better to do it off a blocked normal(low c comes to mind), that way they cannot counter you. I always use the a version as it's a lot quicker and I don't think the c version combos from his weak attacks.

Duck can kill you with one combo. The infinite I posted earlier can be done anywhere! not just in corners...however it's very difficult to infinite them from the front..it's a lot easier it you have their back to you. If you do get an opening from the front, do this combo:
stand a x 5~6(hold forward)stand bxxD duck dive. Not only does this combo do about 50%, it also dizzies! furthermore, when you finish the combo, they are right in the corner where you can kill 'em with the infinite. Another dizzy combo is jump d->low c(2 hits)d duck dive.

I still can't do his super yet, but I can imagine him doing stuff like from nearly full screen:whiff a roll into the grab super for a nice trick. Let's not forget about his kara cancels...

Josh-thefunkDOC: They're are a number of way to get the opponent's back facing you:

1.get them dizzy then jump over them, voila! monster combo coming up!
Sometimes you don't even need to jump over them.

2.They switch planes then come back to the original plane, sometimes they'll face the other way

3. The opposite of 2, you switch planes and come back, they can be doing a move, and when you hit them, you'll get their back facing you

4.Specials which cross under you..e.g I'm Terry in the corner, I jump straight up, Duck rolls into the corner, I land and have his back facing me.

5.Special which just leave them facing the other during their recovery.

There is another way to get them facing the other direction(it's in the Max vids) I'm not sure about that one yet.

I finally got to face Ryo, man he's tough...fb dp traps, huge damage, extremely quick fb and awesome recovery, and a 3 hit dp that dizzies instantly.

Btw. Crayfish, I will be at goodge st. the Saturday before the rb.

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Posted by sixftdeep on August 12th, 2001 05:53 AM:

Speaking of Amiga fighter's, Shadow fighter was really good , just a street fighter rip off but cool none the less. Then there was a game called X-fighter that was fully reviewed in an amiga magazine. It looked so cool(for back then '94) About 35 fighters in groups of 5's there were the bouncers, the ninjas, the mercs, the gangsters and phantoms etc each group had there own unique styles depending on the group eg. mercs had weapons, ninjas were fast and had swords, bouncers were graplers the phantoms could fly etc. Plus there was stuff like super comboes and option like a shared power bar between opponents. I 99% sure that the game was never released for some unknown reason, man I would love to get my hand on a copy of that game. It was published by Thalion if anyone was wondering.

Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on August 12th, 2001 10:30 PM:

Thanks a lot Middlekick. The MAX way you still can't figure out is the one I was wondering about, but your info helped too.

Josh the FunkDOC
Is also very happy hearing about the Duck infinite.

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Posted by Crayfish on August 13th, 2001 12:44 AM:

Here is the link to that new obscure fighting game Martial Masters.

http://www.igs.com.tw/chinese/product/martial/twchio.htm

Crayfish.
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Posted by sixftdeep on August 13th, 2001 11:41 AM:

Did anyone mention : Street Smart, Shaq Fu, or Combatribes?

Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on August 15th, 2001 07:21 PM:

*Bump*

And Shaq-Fu owns.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on August 24th, 2001 03:00 AM:

This thread MUST not die, dammit!

Hm...if any of the Turtles players are still reading this, Mikey doesn't beat Chrome Dome for free. The ball move gets beat by jumping fierce and B+fierce.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by Taramoor on August 24th, 2001 03:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC
This thread MUST not die, dammit!

Hm...if any of the Turtles players are still reading this, Mikey doesn't beat Chrome Dome for free. The ball move gets beat by jumping fierce and B+fierce.

Josh the FunkDOC

I always preferred to block till the ball ended and then piledrive his ass... SPD that shit!

Anyway, noone in TMNT owns anyone one for free except Karai. She owns EVERYONE for free. j+fierce, repeat.

Posted by Middlekick on September 3rd, 2001 02:33 AM:

just to let the two people who actually care about ffs, the max site has updated yet again with some real weird movies.

http://home.att.ne.jp/sun/garousp-max/maxkenkyu-kai.html

go!

ps. Duck is too good.
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Posted by foreignermiguel on September 6th, 2001 08:13 PM:
quick neo geo question

I downloaded the King of fighters '99 rom and the Fatal Fury:mark of the wolves roms but I can't seem to get them to work with the neo rage x emulator.. any help? The rom names do show up in white like the other roms but when I try to launch them they just hang up. Oh yeah, the version of neo rage x that I am using is the 6B
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Posted by Crayfish on September 9th, 2001 01:42 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Middlekick
just to let the two people who actually care about ffs, the max site has updated yet again with some real weird movies.

http://home.att.ne.jp/sun/garousp-max/maxkenkyu-kai.html

go!
ps. Duck is too good.

Hmmm, I suspose if you play a game for eight years those are the sort of things you are going to find, bonkers.
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Posted by CHAZumaru on September 22nd, 2001 07:28 PM:

SHIT !

Am I the only one concerned about this wonderful should-be-sticky thread ?

Here's a "new" game I bought this afternoon:

*name: FUUNSAIKI (jap name is very long, very kanji and with a 2 written in kanji at the end)

*hardware: Segasaturn (ref. T-1305G), Arcade (?)

*Editor: Data East *Developper: ?

*Copyrighted: 1995/1996 (saturn version is from 1996)

*Genre: Think Golden Axe Duel in the world of Sangoku Musou. The chars are taken from the Jipang and 3 kingdoms mythologies. 1 on 1 with weapons.

*ripping-off:
Samurai spirits
Golden Axe the Duel
KoF
Garo densetsu Fatal fury
SF

*sound: cheap
*music: chinese an irritating
*graphics: Ok for '96, cheap nowadays
*animation: shity, maybe less good than way older FFSpecial
*gameplay: quite good !!!

*max price advised: 28 dollars/ 30 euros.

The gameplay is really the great point of this game. 6 buttons à la SF
(SP,MP,HP...), moves taken from SF,FF..., you have a special and a dramatic special for each char.

NO super jump
NO guard break (?)
super guard
small jump (!) (SP+SK)
NO taunt (?)
NO escape or roll
NO dash
run
NO reversal (?)
weapon drop (MP+MK)
weapon sacrifice attack (!) (HP+HK)
juggle like hell (apparently THE game basic, like Parrying in SF3)
combo like hell of hell of hell

There are 14 chars, apparently no secret one cos' the boss is playable from start, and 2 new chars seem to have been implemented from either the 1st one, either the arcade version. There are a few obvious clues that let me assume that...
Chars vary from the ninja girl to the SamSpi Earthquake-like char, including the chinese thief, the old man, the nunchaku-guy, the tong-fa guy, the sangoku-stick-master-kilik-like guy, and, talking about SoulCa, a female dressed EXACTLY as Seung Mina but with Huang 2 swords technique

Voilààà

Posted by CHAZumaru on September 22nd, 2001 08:29 PM:

and I proudly...BUMP !

Posted by Crayfish on September 23rd, 2001 12:26 AM:

Thanks for that Chazumaru, so thats what that game is, I think I did mention it earlier in the thread. I saved a page about this game from the Data East site (Midnight Resistance in one of my all time faves) but I didn't know what it was cause its all in Japanese.

I have been real lazy with this thread, I'll try to get right back on things. An obscure thread did well recently in General so there is interest there. I want to keep this going for the FFSpecial fans as much as anything. Will post soon.

BTW Chaz could you have a look at that Daytona question again, I posted a reply?

Thanks again, Crayfish.

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Posted by Bilderburg on September 23rd, 2001 02:04 AM:
You guys got it goin on!

O man, MK II.. Those were the days. That was an incredibly deep game for the day. The best MK, hands down. Who could forget Katana's corner trap? Milenia was probably the most scrubby character of all in that game. I remember playing that on X-band and geting my ass kicked by the locals all the time. Still a lot of fun though. Imagine the combo possibilites if there were a move to morph Shang Tsung back into himself! Wooo!

Don't forget Samurai Shodown II. That game is a legend. Unlimited replay. Doll moves, hopping, taunts, weapon-breaking supers. To this day, I still play this game with delight, like the first day I got it for Neo Geo. Best $200 I've ever spent on a game. I remember I used to play it in the arcade with a guy who used Ukyo. He was the best player I ever met in SSII. Polite, fought with honor, which is rare for fighting players. If he dizzied you, he steped back and let you recover. If he was in a tie-up, he'd intentionally lose his wpn and fight without it for the rest of the round. He's the only guy who's ever been able to beat me in a serious game.

Of all the characters in SSII, Ukyo is the cheapest, with seemingly instant recovery times. His slides with > + H.Slash and > + H.Kick were great to work in combos. Swallow slice was a good unpredictable move, too.

My favorite of all had to be Caffenine Nicotine, who resembled the old man from Ninja Scroll. His blue bird fireball was great for air attackers, and his QCF + K move had to be a f. ball blocked low. His chain grab was slow, but effective if landed. Most unpredictable was his RDP + P, which had short range, but reversed controls of the opponent if landed.

Well, that's all ...

Bilderburg

Posted by Crayfish on September 23rd, 2001 10:44 PM:
Re: You guys got it goin on!

quote:
Originally posted by Bilderburg
O man, MK II.. Those were the days. That was an incredibly deep game for the day. The best MK, hands down. Who could forget Katana's corner trap? Milenia was probably the most scrubby character of all in that game. I remember playing that on X-band and geting my ass kicked by the locals all the time. Still a lot of fun though. Imagine the combo possibilites if there were a move to morph Shang Tsung back into himself! Wooo!

Yeah I loved MK2. I would love to see some movies of it being played competetively back in the day, tho I imagine Milina's drop down move basicaly broke the game (or did it?).

About the combo possibilities of morphing back into Shang Tsung, you can do some amazing things, you just have to time it right (Shang always stays transformed for the same amount of time). I used to turn into Sub-Zero near the end of a match then kill the opponent and do the first part of the Freeze fatality then turn back into Shang Tsung and do the burst out of body fatality. On the snes version the ice would crash and turn green! Anyway about the combos, there is this forums video that contains amazing combos utilizing perfect timing turning back into Shang Tsung and a Milina FB glitch I didn't even know about (anyone know how to do it?). It also contains the Katana corner trap you mentioned.

The movie is called 'gcc-forum-01' and can be found here:

http://www.gamecombos.com/

Crayfish.
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Posted by CHAZumaru on September 24th, 2001 09:47 AM:

hello hello everyone.
Well, "FUUSINKAI is the sequel of SEIKO ENBU.

I have to remarks, Crayfish:

1°/ How to keep this thread alive ? It's looking more and more like a public private message between us

2°/ As for your Daytona question, I assume it means when you bump into the wall and for a magical reason it doesn't do any damage or even slowdown but instead dirves your car to it's almost max speed; cool heh

it's pretty hard to explain HOW to do it, you really have to experience it yourself (try Mermaid Lake !)

3°/ I'm answering you in that thread because Yesterday I got stopped after 12 posts wtf since when can't I post more than 12 !?!

4°/ I've almost been BANNED for my previous avatar
do you know what's allowed or not as an avatar ?

5°/ Did you know that Daytona 3 has been announced ?

6°/ Did anyone mention the game SHIN O KEN on NG and SS ? I'm trying to get it on SS.

7°/ Cash Rules Everything Around Me C.R.E.A.M. get the money...

Posted by RagingAkuma on September 24th, 2001 10:35 AM:

I like playing my friends in MvSF. Mainly because it's right next to MvC2 at the University arcade, and I can't be bothered waiting two hours for a game of MvC2.
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Posted by Crayfish on September 24th, 2001 11:46 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by CHAZumaru

1°/ How to keep this thread alive ? It's looking more and more like a public private message between us

Its just down to me really, I've been slack lately on all my oldschool games. I'm gonna get right back on the case tho, especialy since we have only gone into detail about a small amount of the games mentioned here.

quote:
Originally posted by CHAZumaru

2°/ As for your Daytona question, I assume it means when you bump into the wall and for a magical reason it doesn't do any damage or even slowdown but instead dirves your car to it's almost max speed; cool heh

I have hit the wall before without slowing down, it seems mainly to do with the angle your car hits at. On Rin Rin Rink I have slid into the brigde corner with my car at exactly 90o and it just bounced off, didn't speed up any faster than normal tho.

The technique I'm refering to seems different(tho probably related to the same glitch). I quote from John "Taro" Kadonoff's DC daytona FAQ:

1.4 Wall Riding

This difficult, advanced technique involves you going very fast and very high into a turn. It's only done on turns where the road meets the wall with no grass or sand on the high side. What you do is you just touch, (not too hard) the inside wall enough to make sparks. Then, steer yourself away very slightly. This will change your trajectory enough so you will head straight, and only lose a little speed, depending on how well it was done. This is the toughest move, and much practice is needed.

quote:
Originally posted by CHAZumaru

4°/ I've almost been BANNED for my previous avatar
do you know what's allowed or not as an avatar ?

Yeah the size requirement is 10,000 instead of 20,000k. I think mine is the exact maximum dimensions. I'm surprised how many people still have their old big avatars. I changed mine straght away (I liked my old tho, that took ages to make) cause I'm gratefull for these forums. They got changed along with the 12 posting limit etc.. when one day the main dude here (Inkbot I think) was getting abuse about his family from some of the posters here.

quote:
Originally posted by CHAZumaru

5°/ Did you know that Daytona 3 has been announced ?
[/QUOTE
No way, where did you hear that? Is Nagoshi involved? I heard he didn't really want to make Daytona 2 cause of his progressive attitude to the art of videogames. Will it be on Naomi or Naomi2? Will it come out for home systems? (I still want Daytona 2 at home). Any other info you have?
BTW what is your opinion of Daytona 2? I think it looks beautiful but I don't think it plays as well as the 1st one cause the handling is too forgiving, if you oversteer you can pull the front wheels back into alignment. I might be wrong tho cause I haven't got to play it that much, £1 a go!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by CHAZumaru

6°/ Did anyone mention the game SHIN O KEN on NG and SS ? I'm trying to get it on SS.

No, don't think so, post some stuff.

quote:
Originally posted by CHAZumaru

7°/ Cash Rules Everything Around Me C.R.E.A.M. get the money...

WUU TAANG
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Posted by CHAZumaru on September 24th, 2001 12:13 PM:

HAHA I knew you'd know CREAM, maybe it's an oldschool fighting music

BTW, I was reading throught the ol' pages of this thread; so here are a few comments about them and your latest answers:

I've almost been banned cos' my avatar was a hentai maid peeing in stocking. No link with the size.

I think that "magic wall touch" in Dayto IS the "wall riding", althought I remembered losing no speed at all but gaining some instead.

"abuse his family" explain me pliz

Dayto 3 was announced in the same time as Sakura 4 as a DC only final release. But the fact that Amusement Vision is moving their games to Gamecube might alter that.

About our O&O (old and obscure) games:

I'd like to know if anyone knows if these Saturn versions of MVS games, which I own on emul, worth it on Sat:
Fighter's History Dynamite
World Heroes Perfect
Shin O Ken

Shin O ken was developped by Saurus on MVS (edited by Data East ?) and featured godly fighters looking for the throne of paradise. Never really played it thought.

You don't know Golden Axe the Duel ? It's not a fantastic game. Samurai and Street Fighter having a *slightly retarded* baby.
The cool part was that to get your fury gauge full you had to slash bypassing dwarves who dropped potions which you had to collect DURING the battle - think crystals in Pocket Fighter -
The furies where nice thought.

Groove on Fight aka Power instinct 3 aka Gohketsujii 3 aka not great.
But the tag system is always appreciable. Too little chars infortunately.

Flying Dragon and Golden Fighter are indeed the same series.

There was a Vs. mode in Bare Knuckles/Street of Rage 2 or 3 or both.

You asked for more NEC only fighters, well Strip Fighter II was a SFII parody with VERY SLIGHTLY DRESSED babes.

and...
DAMN NO ONE TALKED ABOUT THE BEST FIGHTING GAME OF ALL TIME (NO BIASING !) "YU YU HAKUSHO MAKIOTO ISSEN" ON MEGADRIVE BY TREASURE !!!!

O&O forever !

Posted by CHAZumaru on September 24th, 2001 04:00 PM:

Well Cray I guess you allready used your 12 tokens

I've got a few things too add:

Another Saturn adapted game I'd like to check out is Galaxy Fight.
So if anyone knows the quality of the ss versions of those MVS games, tell me !

To the readers of my old Street Fighter II dash champion edition PLUS
thread, the game that one of you was talking about, with air fireball Blankas is Street Fighter II Rainbow edition.

I also would like to know how to give you guys vids or pics of Rabbit and Fuunsaiki ? The site doesn't seem to allow me posting it. Am I doing anything wrong ? The size maybe...
Otherwise, can I mail to anyone interested ? Just tell me on this thread or by PM.
( not by mail, I barely watch them. )

Also, I bought Real Bout Best Collection today and I'm broke
thanks Sayajin11.

This Sega Saturn 2D fighters collection is really killing me

Talking about SegaSaturn, I'm looking on ANY information concerning Fallen Angels, an S-TV game by Psikyo, which looked like a 1on1 king of Fighers in a really really dark world (think Wachenröder) with HUGE sprites, which looked like it has been finally canceled.
ONCE AGAIN : ANY INFO

Orochi Kyo: I know I saw a game in Cyprus this august, running on MVS, and I know it had Masters in it: One of the chars was named Goemon. Is it that one? And NO, it's not Ninja Masters !!!

I'm sure I forgot sumthing but hell...

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Posted by CHAZumaru on September 24th, 2001 04:05 PM:

here's what I forgot:
this was the original image of my avatar, in smaller of course

if you wanna be banned too, put THIS as your avatar !

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Posted by Crayfish on September 24th, 2001 11:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by CHAZumaru

This Sega Saturn 2D fighters collection is really killing me

Talking about SegaSaturn, I'm looking on ANY information concerning Fallen Angels, an S-TV game by Psikyo, which looked like a 1on1 king of Fighers in a really really dark world (think Wachenröder) with HUGE sprites, which looked like it has been finally canceled.
ONCE AGAIN : ANY INFO

I have a Psikyo Mook with the flyer & chara artwork in but it doesn't have anything about the game. Looks a bit like the KOF goth posturing stuff like Iori.

quote:
Originally posted by CHAZumaru

Orochi Kyo: I know I saw a game in Cyprus this august, running on MVS, and I know it had Masters in it: One of the chars was named Goemon. Is it that one? And NO, it's not Ninja Masters !!!

Yeah thats 'Martial Masters', there is some stuff about it earlier in the thread including a link to homepage.
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Posted by CHAZumaru on September 25th, 2001 10:07 AM:

here we are, back for a thread full of O&O trashtalking up to skills down to style.

Mizoguchi from FH and FHD/KR is indeed a bonus character in Fuunsaikii
and I think another girl from FHD/KR is there too.

Crayfish: you NEVER answered my question, which was the one that drove me to this thread in first place : Why do you think Breakers'Revenge is so great?

And Daytona 3 is official. BTW does anyone know any valuable tactics for The Hornet in... Fighters Megamix ?

(no "go to gamefaqs" please)

O&O strikes back !
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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on September 25th, 2001 04:42 PM:

Hey guys, I want to post some more FFS stuff later.

And there's somebody else interested in World Heroes Perfect? W00t w00t!

That game's definitely worth buying.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by CHAZumaru on September 28th, 2001 04:16 PM:

Just O&O bumping

Does anyone have good strats for Street Typer II ? Who's top tier ?

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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on September 28th, 2001 07:38 PM:

I never knew there was a Street Typer II. I'd love to know more about it.

And mofojo's the guy who did the MK2 combos. He has a whole movie of other MK2 stuff at http://www.pimp-productions.com/ . It requires this really wierd codec to view, but apparently it's worth the effort.

EDIT: Damn, it's not there anymore. However, I have heard that a new MK video (not sure which one) will appear on Gamecombos soon.

Josh the FunkDOC
Should ask mofojo what this MK2 bug is.

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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on September 28th, 2001 08:05 PM:

Damn, I never knew Pimp Productions had a Groove On Fight combo movie! Only a minute and a half, but still very cool.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by CHAZumaru on September 28th, 2001 08:34 PM:

link please
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Posted by CHAZumaru on September 28th, 2001 08:44 PM:

'bout Street Typer II:

It was a typing game (like "The typing of the dead") where you typed names to do specials and stuff, out on jap PCs for SF's 10th anniversary.

Oh, and it's based on SSFIIX... or HF ? Hell I forgot...
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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on September 29th, 2001 12:09 AM:

Street Typer II...did it have supers? If so it'd be based on ST, if not it'd be more like HF.

And the Groove On Fight combo movie is at http://www.pimp-productions.com/ . Just click on "Videos" and you're there. I think you need the DivX codec...either that or the Angel Potion codec. I have them both, so I couldn't tell you which one.

Josh the FunkDOC

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Posted by CHAZumaru on October 1st, 2001 06:25 PM:

ok, here's my conclusion on 'Real bout best collection' Segasaturn:

*no changes for rbs
*less bugs in rb when played with 4mb cartridge
*no packaging change appart from the front/back cd case covers.
*no new char ( no Alfred )
*rbs is not the "dominated minds" version (shit!)
*I think rb is smoother (because of 4mb ?)
*possible sound arrangement in rb (because of 4mb ?)

and I fucking BURNED my Segasaturn this morning while playing Groove on Fight !!!!! wtf !?! fortunately a shop owner friend of mine will give me a new one by wednesday...

Oh, and that game 'Shin O ken' I was talking about has a romaji name, something like 'Ragnarand'

see you Cray and others!
btw cray, does Duck own rb/rbs too ?
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Posted by Crayfish on October 1st, 2001 10:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by CHAZumaru

and I fucking BURNED my Segasaturn this morning while playing Groove on Fight !!!!! wtf !?! fortunately a shop owner friend of mine will give me a new one by wednesday...

see you Cray and others!
btw cray, does Duck own rb/rbs too ?

Yeah I lost my Saturn in a power surge. I was gutted cause I couldn't get it repaired and I had had it fitted with a internal converter and 50/60Hz switch (I live in the shitty 50Hz UK). I loved those controlers, proper 6 buttons on front (what the DC should have had) and shoulders. I got an official clear plasstic one called 'Cool Pad', it had the best soft rubber D-pad, brilliant for fighters. Maybe I'll be able to find someone to repair it one day.

Sorry don't know about Duck. I don't play him even in FFS. You need to ask Josh or Middlekick, they are the Duck experts.

Crayfish.
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Posted by Crayfish on October 2nd, 2001 03:27 PM:

Just to say that the MAX FFS site has been updated with new sections. There only seems to be one new video though, its in the Kara canceling section. Its called 42-6, which I beleive hasn,t been posted before. Don't know what it is yet cause of bad connection.

Crayfish.
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Posted by CHAZumaru on October 2nd, 2001 10:45 PM:

Hey Cray you gonna be happy with this one. I was wandering about with 300 FF (about 30£) in my pockets when I finally ended almost naturally at a friend's gameshop (the same guy that is giving me away one of his saturns tomorrow) and said, like, "hey shit I gonna buy you Garôdensetsu Special for 300 FF !" and he said that cool he had a japanese never-opened (!) version for 400 FF which he'd give away for the indeed 300s I had.
So here I am, playing for the last 3 hours to that game I quitted a few years ago when my cousin sold his NG.
All thanks to that diggy O&O thread !

BTW I always heard that Kim was sickly overpowered compared to the others. Is it true or is -latest trend- Duck the main man ? Anyway that doesn't really matter as they with Geese are my two fav' chars.
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Posted by Crayfish on October 2nd, 2001 11:22 PM:

Well that was a score. Kim was rated high in the origonal Gamest rankings, but the Japanese MAX top players favour Geese and Duck. I don't think its too much of an issue anyway as its a well balanced game, so its down to you more than anything. I personaly really rate Kim, his Feirce (double hit heel kick) is brilliant as is his super which you can use to punish even small openings at long range. As for Geese and Duck, Josh has posted some really good stuff earlier in the thread as has Middlekick for Duck. Middlekick, from his findings, seems convinced that Duck is the strongest. I'll go along with that because being the UK's no1 A3 player he obviously knows his stuff. Also refer back to the MAX vids, of which most are of Duck and Geese.
Plus there are my guides for Tung, Cheng and Joe should the mood ever take you.

Wow thats 4 FFS players now! Bigtime! Damn I've got to get it together and post more FFS stuff.
Keep the faith, Crayfish.
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Posted by CHAZumaru on October 2nd, 2001 11:39 PM:

what about Ryo ? isn't he a big guy too?
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Posted by Crayfish on October 2nd, 2001 11:57 PM:

Sorry you'll have to ask Middlekick, I haven't got him up. You need the home version to play him anyway (although smeone posted and said they saw Ryo's in a Hong Kong arcade?), I only have the MVS Mame emulated version. I think Middlekick said he's got a strong FB trap game and an old style invunerable uppercut and a good SDM, beyond that I don't know. When you find some stuff post it. I'm interested to hear about Ryo and as the only home version owner here you can play him. See FAQ for details on getting him up.

Crayfish.
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Posted by Josh-TheFunkDOC on October 3rd, 2001 01:49 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Crayfish
Sorry don't know about Duck. I don't play him even in FFS. You need to ask Josh or Middlekick, they are the Duck experts.

Crayfish.

I really ain't an expert. Hell, I've mostly been playing Axel lately.

CHAZumaru, were you asking about the Real Bout games? Well, I don't see Duck being as powerful in that series, but he, even more so than in Special, is a combo MACHINE. Especially in the original Real Bout when he could combo after his mid-air ball attack. His ball move is a kinda double-edged sword now: It's done with a QCF motion now, but it's definitely not as safe as in Special. His anti-air special move is now done with a simple DP motion, but its priority got killed big-time. And the good thing is that the classic throw super is now his S-Power attack (meaning, you can repeat it when you have low life like FFS or just use it when you fill up the super bar).

One more really cool thing about Real Bout Duck is his P-Power move(low life AND full super bar required, FYI). It's quite possibly the most unique move in all the games, and it takes some getting used to (especially because it works differently in Real Bout and Real Bout Special). The Real Bout version is simpler: When you do the motion (D,D+ABC), Duck does some goofy dancing. During this, he can do one of two supers which will take up the meter. However, it's almost always better to let him finish the dance if possible. This is because he not only gets a 50% damage boost on EVERYTHING while this mode lasts (the super meter becomes a timer that slowly decreases during this), but he gets two new supers readily available anytime during this mode as well as the throw super.

The Real Bout Special version of this SDM is different: I don't recall whether the damage boost is still there or not, and the way of getting these different supers is different. See, you can't do anything during the dance itself anymore. Instead, you have to hold ABC to charge it up a "level". If you don't hold the buttons, you'll be at level 1 which gives him 2 supers. If you hold them until he does a second dance move, you'll be at level 2 and gain access to one more super as well as the other two. Hold them longer for level 3 which will add yet another super to his list. And if you hold them long enough to get level 4, you get to use the ultimate super: DUCK DEADLY RAVE~!

One more lil' tidbit and then I'll go : In Real Bout, Duck can do a chain combo of A->A->B->B->C. This is his old Beat Rush move from FFS.

Whew, took a lil' longer than I thought. Maybe I should give the Real Bout series another chance, now that I think about it...

Josh the FunkDOC

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